Steering Box Oil Seal

[Bill Hyatt]

-Bill HyattSent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message:

[b]From:[/b] Bill Hyatt usaj24@earthlink.net

Barry,Steel on cast iron w/o a bushing can work if loads are low, as they are in steering box application. Most cars of 30 s & 40 s vintage had a perceived shelf life of 35-45k miles, so engineers foresaw no need for extended service when rest of vehicle was worn out & ready for breakers after 5-7 years. H. Ford actually sent engineers out to junk yards to inspect that reached   end of life status. They were tasked to inspect junked car parts to determine if any parts had remaining service life, being over engineered. Ford sought to dumb down still usable parts to save money. Clearly he had little interest in QC. That concept didn t start to become understood till probably the 60 s due to competitive pressures from Japanese motorcycle & auto makers who were introduced to need for high levels of QC post WWII,  in order to gain product acceptance in world markets. Their success in shedding their image of industrial products being jap crap would be the only way they could emerge from  WWII collapse to becoming an post WWII industrial force necessary for recovery. Think of decline of UK motorbike industry when influx of Japanese bikes hit UK & Europe.Gen. MacArthur imported W.E Deming  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming  Et al to Japan to teach their industrialists the science of statistical QC. It wasn t till decades later that Detroit sort of bought into Deming s concepts & service life of domestic vehicles began to improve. Now 100k warranties are not uncommon. Bill -Bill HyattSent from my iPhone On Nov 4, 2018, at 3:51 PM, Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   How strange, maybe?  As we speak I have both of my TC's steering columns/housing on the bench and both have brass or bronze sleeves.  They both have the hole internally to feed the walls oil.  They are both about 2,831 cars apart during orignial production. One I purchased in New York City 45 years ago, the other San Francisco.  My guess is that the brass/bronze sleeve was most likely a factory standard and not steel, though I cannot speak on behalf of all 10,000 TC's.  Possibly no sleeves were used on the earliest models, or none on the late ones when the bean counters said we could save a few pence. Second thought, maybe it would make sense?  Bearings are usually steel rubbing against steel, so a sector shaft rubbing against a steel housing wall would seem to be the same as any other bearing?  The only real difference, and a plus, is having a bronze sleeve would retain the oil better. Barry Cook   On Sunday, November 4, 2018 9:07 AM, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com> wrote: Cannot tell from you post, Barry, if you are aware that there originally was no brass sleeve or bushing installed in the BC housing for the sector shaft?  I know of one TC that is driven weekly that still has the original BC unit with no sleeve, and no leak.  It does have the modern lip seal fitted. [b]From:[/b] "Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: Doug Pelton doug@fromtheframeup.com>; "dr.david.james@gmail.com" dr.david.james@gmail.com>; "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Saturday, November 3, 2018 7:00 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal   McMastercarr has a lip seal that may do the job?  Go to Mcmastercarr and enter 5154T56 (item number).Also, I believe none of our suppliers in the states have the brass sleeve for the sector shaft.  If worn, check out the following 3" bronze sleeve bearings also from Mcmastercarr.-    6391K11    is  Porous Bronze-    2868T174  is  Iron and Bronze mix-    6381K11    is  Lead and Bronze mixNOTE:  Which would be the best alloy sleeve bearing for this application?  I am not sure?  Any Ideas? Barry Cook On Monday, October 22, 2018 8:27 AM, "'Doug Pelton' doug@fromtheframeup.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hi David,  Probably are King Pin bushings as they have same ID, .  To seal the bottom with a modern lip seal you will have to have it machined to accept seal.  Regards,  [b][i]Doug Pelton,[/i][/b] Proprietor  [b][i]NOTE:  New Address[/i][/b]From The Frame Up3030 S. 40th St., Suite 5Phoenix, AZ  85040  480-588-8185For Fastest Service:  order@fromtheframeup.comLike us on FACEBOOK! See us on YouTUBE!  www.FromTheFrameUp.com  [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]On Behalf Of [/b]dr.david.james@gmail..com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Saturday, October 20, 2018 9:45 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal [1 Attachment]    The Bishop Cam steering box on TC4985 has leaked oil since I ve owned the car, some 3 years now. So I keep it topped up with EP140 (GL4). I ve taken off the drop arm in the past to crack test it, but I thought it was time to replace the oil seal. However, when I removed the sector shaft I found that there was no rebate in the box for an oil seal.. The sector shaft is running in two bushes that look very much like king pin bushes, since they have a hole in the middle and a spiral groove. With the drop arm fitted, but without the top plate, the sector shaft moves up and down a millimetre or two, perhaps room enough for a felt washer, although I suspect that would not last long. Any suggestions for solving this problem without having a rebate cut in the box?  David JamesTC4985West Sussex, UK

[Duncan]

What I have heard happens is the opening for the sector shaft wears to an oval shape, eventually.  When that happens, there is no way to seal the oil leak at the bottom.  No type of oil seal will work very long with oval movement.   I'm sure British car mechanics and hobbyists were routinely bushing or re-bushing these TC boxes as early as the 1950's.  Depending on use and mileage. The "modern" lip seal will fit into a completely original (unbushed) BC box, or into a properly re-bushed box.  Either way, the box will start leaking down there when the shaft motion becomes oval.  My '49 BC box is as yet unbushed only because the car has very low miles from when it was purchased in '52.  No snake oil in use, just 140 gear oil... Duncan M'KellarN. CATC9866 From: Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com> To: Duncan morelists@yahoo.com>; MG-TABC List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, November 4, 2018 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal How strange, maybe?  As we speak I have both of my TC's steering columns/housing on the bench and both have brass or bronze sleeves.  They both have the hole internally to feed the walls oil.  They are both about 2,831 cars apart during orignial production. One I purchased in New York City 45 years ago, the other San Francisco.  My guess is that the brass/bronze sleeve was most likely a factory standard and not steel, though I cannot speak on behalf of all 10,000 TC's.  Possibly no sleeves were used on the earliest models, or none on the late ones when the bean counters said we could save a few pence. Second thought, maybe it would make sense?  Bearings are usually steel rubbing against steel, so a sector shaft rubbing against a steel housing wall would seem to be the same as any other bearing?  The only real difference, and a plus, is having a bronze sleeve would retain the oil better. Barry Cook   On Sunday, November 4, 2018 9:07 AM, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com> wrote: Cannot tell from you post, Barry, if you are aware that there originally was no brass sleeve or bushing installed in the BC housing for the sector shaft?  I know of one TC that is driven weekly that still has the original BC unit with no sleeve, and no leak.  It does have the modern lip seal fitted. [b]From:[/b] "Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: Doug Pelton doug@fromtheframeup.com>; "dr.david.james@gmail.com" dr.david.james@gmail.com>; "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Saturday, November 3, 2018 7:00 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal   McMastercarr has a lip seal that may do the job?  Go to Mcmastercarr and enter 5154T56 (item number).Also, I believe none of our suppliers in the states have the brass sleeve for the sector shaft.  If worn, check out the following 3" bronze sleeve bearings also from Mcmastercarr.-    6391K11    is  Porous Bronze-    2868T174  is  Iron and Bronze mix-    6381K11    is  Lead and Bronze mixNOTE:  Which would be the best alloy sleeve bearing for this application?  I am not sure?  Any Ideas? Barry Cook On Monday, October 22, 2018 8:27 AM, "'Doug Pelton' doug@fromtheframeup.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hi David,  Probably are King Pin bushings as they have same ID, .  To seal the bottom with a modern lip seal you will have to have it machined to accept seal.  Regards,  [b][i]Doug Pelton,[/i][/b] Proprietor  [b][i]NOTE:  New Address[/i][/b]From The Frame Up3030 S. 40th St., Suite 5Phoenix, AZ  85040  480-588-8185For Fastest Service:  order@fromtheframeup.comLike us on FACEBOOK! See us on YouTUBE!  www.FromTheFrameUp.com  [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]On Behalf Of [/b]dr.david.james@gmail..com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Saturday, October 20, 2018 9:45 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal [1 Attachment]    The Bishop Cam steering box on TC4985 has leaked oil since I ve owned the car, some 3 years now. So I keep it topped up with EP140 (GL4). I ve taken off the drop arm in the past to crack test it, but I thought it was time to replace the oil seal. However, when I removed the sector shaft I found that there was no rebate in the box for an oil seal. The sector shaft is running in two bushes that look very much like king pin bushes, since they have a hole in the middle and a spiral groove. With the drop arm fitted, but without the top plate, the sector shaft moves up and down a millimetre or two, perhaps room enough for a felt washer, although I suspect that would not last long. Any suggestions for solving this problem without having a rebate cut in the box?  David JamesTC4985West Sussex, UK #ygrps-yiv-16939861 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177 -- #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-16939861 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-16939861 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-16939861 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-16939861 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-16939861 #ygrps-yiv-16939861yiv8360235177 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[Casey Duncan]

I think you also have to consider that the seal also prevents ingress of foreign matter. Although the "bleeding out" of fluid might extract some swarf, I think at least as much dirt will find its way in than what escapes. Regardless it makes a mess of the steering linkages -Casey