Chassis Cross Member Fasteners for 1937 TA

[Monoxidemanor@aol.com]

Dear Kimberites: Getting chassis fasteners correct, especially at the bare chassis stage, is, in our way of thinking, critical. We have a fairly complete library and nothing addresses this subject unless we are overlooking it. We need expert help. Our chassis has been "worked" on by a previous restorer(s) so we don't trust anything we see as original. To preface our questions we have a complete set of BSF and BA taps and dies and understand the differences between these and others thanks to the wonderful tech articles previously published by NEMGTR and other clubs. In an effort to make our questions clearer we will identify each of the five chassis cross members on our TA front to rear along with our respective questions on each member: Front - this member is held in place by two cast pieces (name?) that are attached to the front dumb irons. It appears that they are fastened by a combination of vertical rivets and horizontal bolts and nuts. If this is correct what size rivets should we use, where do we get them, where to we get the rivet tools and how to we "rivet" them? (Alan flunked riveting 101 so its back the classroom.) What are the correct nuts, washers and bolts and what is the best source for authentic ones? We thought that prewar bolts were plain and had no letters on them. It this true? Are lock washers used? Which kind and size? Are flat washers used underneath the lock washers or are the lock washers placed against the bare chassis rail? Forward engine mount -- this member is held in place by a combination of three bolts/nuts and one rivet on each side. The rivets are in the forward upper holes inside the front wing brace bracket. Is this correct? If so, the same questions apply. Rearward engine/transmission mount -- this member is held in place by four bolts on each side. There are no apparent lock washers on the nuts and the bolts don't look prewar. The ones on the off side have the letters C, R and L on the heads and the near side bolts have IPL and D on theirs. Incidentally some of the bolts have no letters on them at all and appear to be original. Same questions apply. Forward rear spring mount -- this member is held in place by four very original looking rivets on both sides. Is this correct? If so, we are happy to leave them alone. Rearward rear spring mount -- this member is held in place by four rivets on one side and nuts and bolts on the other. We suspect the rivets are correct. If so, ditto with the questions. The combinations of rivets and nuts and bolts seems odd. Also, what is the advantage of rivets over threaded fasteners? Were stars lock washers ever used or only the split washers? Any serious help/direction to source information would be greatly appreciated. Kindest regards, Alan & Victoria Campbell

[Dwyer]

Alan & Victoria In Australia I've found rivets very hard to get as they have been largely superceded by other fasteners. If you have the same problem you could make them by getting a suitable sized bolt with an adequate length of plain shank and turning down the hex head to a round head. I imagine they used rivets because at the time they were cheap and quick to use. Because the rivet shank is bulged by the end forces of setting, the clearance holes in the parts are completely filled and there is no possibility of movement. The clearance in the holes is required for mass production so that parts fit readily. I should think that getting tools to set the rivets properly would be a problem for us amateurs. I didn't try. My approach was to drill out the hole dead to size for the next bigger bolt then fit high a tensile bolt with nyloc nut. Since the parts are drilled as a pair no clearance is needed. It's non-original but OK for me. The front cross member knuckles are held as described: vertical rivets, horizontal bolts. As far as I recall every cross member has rivets (5/16 dia I think). If you are in the least doubt about the security of a rivet, replace it (with the fastener of your choice). Drilling them out is a hell of a job - good luck! Star washers didn't come into common use till well postwar, when they largely replaced split spring washers. Regards Dave Dwyer J2, TA, TC

[David and Joyce Edgar]

Oops! I replied this to the sender but forgot the group. Here it is for the group now. ---------------------------------------------- One possible supplier for rivets can be found at: Restoration Supply Company 2060 Palasade Drive Reno NV 89509 775/825-5663 restoration@rsc.reno.nv.us According to their catalog their supply includes brass, copper, aluminum, steel, stainless and German silver. Due to the the various materials, sizes and head styles they don't list what they carry in the catalog but ask you to contact them with your requirements. For the TA frame you would want a steel rivet with a round head. If they are 5/16 dia, they may be very hard to come by and even if you found some you would need the proper tools to set them properly. A blacksmith may be able to help out. David Edgar, TC 5108 El Cajon, California

>Alan & Victoria > >In Australia I've found rivets very hard to get as they have been largely >superceded by other fasteners. If you have the same problem you could make >them by getting a suitable sized bolt with an adequate length of plain shank >and turning down the hex head to a round head. > >I imagine they used rivets because at the time they were cheap and quick to >use. Because the rivet shank is bulged by the end forces of setting, the >clearance holes in the parts are completely filled and there is no >possibility of movement. The clearance in the holes is required for mass >production so that parts fit readily. > >I should think that getting tools to set the rivets properly would be a >problem for us amateurs. I didn't try. My approach was to drill out the hole >dead to size for the next bigger bolt then fit high a tensile bolt with >nyloc nut. Since the parts are drilled as a pair no clearance is needed. >It's non-original but OK for me. > >The front cross member knuckles are held as described: vertical rivets, >horizontal bolts. > >As far as I recall every cross member has rivets (5/16 dia I think). If you >are in the least doubt about the security of a rivet, replace it (with the >fastener of your choice). Drilling them out is a hell of a job - good luck! > >Star washers didn't come into common use till well postwar, when they >largely replaced split spring washers. > >Regards > >Dave Dwyer >J2, TA, TC > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Dwyer]

Alan I managed to dig down to my TA chassis today (it's rather covered by pieces of TC at present). The radiator crossmember is fixed each side with three bolts and one rivet in the top/front position. The engine rear mount crossmember is fixed each side with three rivets and one bolt in the lower front position. Everything else is rivetted. Regards Dave Dwyer J2, TA, TC

[Monoxidemanor@aol.com]

Dear Dave: This is exactly the kind of information from the list that we are seeking. Thank you for taking the time to help us out. Kindest regards, Alan & Victoria Campbell

[JohnHWSteedman@aol.com]

All rivets for the T-type, - chassis, battery/tool box lid, headlight, I have ordered from: The Rivet Supply Company Power Road Chiswick London W4 5PP England Telephone: 44- 208 994 0102. Please note that they are an industrial concern, dealing with serious orders, so our requests for a half dozen are done as favour. A phone call and cash in an envelope usually does the trick! They don't know what T Types are so you have to specify exactly what you want. Joh Steedman TC 0301

[Monoxidemanor@aol.com]

[Anita & Bill Stull]

Alan & Victoria, I had a similiar problem with rivets as I began the restoration of my basket case '48 TC. Years of abuse had caused many rivets to loosen. Not having access to rivets or the tooling to set them, my solution was to drill them out and replace them with Mil-Spec aircraft fasteners. I remember the rivets being about 5/16 inch diameter although some rivet holes were ovaled slightly. I found a reamer that tapered from 5/16 to 3/8 inch and used that to clean up the rivet holes. The beauty of aircraft fasteners is that they can be ordered in length increments of 1/16 inch (the dash number. A -10 bolt is 10/16 or 5/8 long). For the holes on each cross member I measured the distance from outside to outside and then added the thickness of two washers (one under the bolt head and one under the nut). To this bolt shank length I also added the thickness of a nylon locknut. I then ordered a collection of 3/8 (AN6) bolts, washers and nyloc nuts to the lengths I had calculated. When tightening the nuts I used red Loctite and torqued the nyloc nuts to the proper spec. Not original, but necessary and likely better than new. If you decide to go this route, contact me off list. I'm glad to supply the name of the fastener supplier and will loan you my 5/16 - 3/8 reamer. Best of luck, Bill Stull TC 4790 Marysville WA