???f fixed ??? (was "high rpm miss .......... any updates???

[RobertWichert]

Right, Norm... Nobody uses them,  but getting the fault code from a KLR is pretty tough, eh, I'd try Sears. Or Pep Boys. Robert P. Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&CHERS I & HERS IICEPE & CEA RES & NON-RES +1 916 966 9060FAX +1 916 966 9068

On Jun 22, 2014, at 10:15 AM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Robert, what shop are you referencing which will know more about wave forms? Just wishing for clarification.   Oscilloscopes have never been popular in the motorcycle repair industry, so far as I know. I've never seen one in a bike shop or heard of other than very exceptional use. The automotive repair has used ignition oscilloscopes for 40+ years, IME but their use has dropped to almost zero because ignition components are so much better. In addition, on-board diagnostics usually provide sufficient information.   'scopes in the automotive repair have moved to testing of sensors and, to some degree, outputs from modules. Heavy equipment, heavy truck, ag. have not used 'scopes traditionally. I think it has been more a matter of custom based on the fact that automotive techs were more accustomed to 'scopes because of the ignition application which didn't apply to the other areas which were almost exclusively diesel.   These days anyone can own a basic lab scope which connects to a PC by USB although one with ignition pick-up capability is more expensive. I always chuckle when bike groups get onto 'scope use because it usually turns out that those of us who have long experience in 'scope use for bike servicing are those with the least knowledge of the subject. I fit that pattern so am always eager to learn and to test my conclusions.    

[Norm Keller]

Robert, are you trying Sears or Pep Boys to get someone to do a scope test on the bike or to buy a scope?   Hope it didn't sound as though I was disputing anything you said. I was simply requesting more information as you always have a very effective perspective on matters.   I agree about the trouble code as can't seem to find an adapter for my scanner either. Live data stream would be handy.   One could use the computer's sound card with free application to display wave forms. That might get you some of the information you require. I jury rigged a set-up to do this with some success but so long ago that can't recall details. If I was successful, you certainly won't have any problems.

[RobertWichert]

I meant going to Sears or Pep Boys and asking them to put the scope on the bike, Norm. I would think primary and secondary would be the way to go, but the scope operator (ask him to come from the retirement home for one afternoon) should be able to figure out how to do that with a wiring diagram. It won't be free. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/23/2014 10:22 AM, 'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:

  Robert, are you trying Sears or Pep Boys to get someone to do a scope test on the bike or to buy a scope?   Hope it didn't sound as though I was disputing anything you said. I was simply requesting more information as you always have a very effective perspective on matters.   I agree about the trouble code as can't seem to find an adapter for my scanner either. Live data stream would be handy.   One could use the computer's sound card with free application to display wave forms. That might get you some of the information you require. I jury rigged a set-up to do this with some success but so long ago that can't recall details. If I was successful, you certainly won't have any problems.

[Norm Keller]

Gotcha!

 

It will be interesting to hear whether you are successful in finding someone who will do some patterns. I'd suggest that it will be someone who has a "lab scope" as they are known in the trade rather than a conventional engine (ignition) oscilloscope. Wish you were closer as you'd be welcome to borrow mine.

 

At shop rate, you might be better off to buy one on EBay and have it in hand. A cost/benefit which you will obviously need to calculate for yourself so simply offering a possible option. Getting up to speed on a scope which isn't tailor made for doing ignition testing takes a bit as it's much more complicated than simply hooking up a scope which is made for the range involved.

 

This might seem off the wall, but I've been reading your posts for a long time and conclude that there's no grass growing on your brain so if you were to acquire a scope, you'd be able to provide some great insight. I think it would simply come down to whether you care to expend the time as the cost isn't out of line.

 

I bought one of these to play with because it has ignition adapters (clip over the spark plug) and scales intended for the ranges. My other one uses conventional lab type test probes only but I have some "ignition pick-ups" salvaged from some timing lights and an old automotive oscilloscope which work with the scope and lab probes. One problem I have is that I don't do enough of the testing to remember as well as would like so plan to do a step-by-step for myself next time I get going with the scope. It wouldn't be much use to another but will at least save me wondering which scale, timing and such.

 

Where are you located? Thought you're not "local" to the Pacific Northwest, right?

 

Norm

 

"There's nothing in this world that I love more, and this includes my family, than an over extended metaphor."   Penn Jillette

[greg coyle]

Robert, call me late to the party, but if you have a timing light you could connect that and go for a ride. run her up to before the miss starts and watch the strobe. then when it starts to miss compare the strobe. if it cuts out or shows noticeable fluctuation i think you assume it's an electrical issue (cdi, plug, plug lead, etc) yes? and if it's not electrical it's gotta be fuel, yes? similarly, using a vacuum gauge hook that up too and see if it drops. gregc

On 6/23/2014 1:24 PM, RobertWichert robert@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote: > I meant going to Sears or Pep Boys and asking them to put the scope on > the bike, Norm. > > I would think primary and secondary would be the way to go, but the > scope operator (ask him to come from the retirement home for one > afternoon) should be able to figure out how to do that with a wiring > diagram. > > > It won't be free. > > > > Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C > HERS I/II CEPE CEA > BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER > +1 916 966 9060 > FAX +1 916 966 9068 > > > > > > > > =============================================== > > On 6/23/2014 10:22 AM, 'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote: >> >> Robert, are you trying Sears or Pep Boys to get someone to do a scope >> test on the bike or to buy a scope? >> Hope it didn't sound as though I was disputing anything you said. I >> was simply requesting more information as you always have a very >> effective perspective on matters. >> I agree about the trouble code as can't seem to find an adapter for my >> scanner either. >> Live data stream would be handy. >> One could use the computer's sound card with free application to >> display wave forms. That might get you some of the information you >> require. I jury rigged a set-up to do this with some success but so >> long ago that can't recall details. If I was successful, you certainly >> won't have any problems. > >

[RobertWichert]

No way, Norm.  Everything is fine.  If I have responded in a brusque or offhand manner, I want to apologize.  Realizing that oscilloscopes are not commonly used now, I am proposing something that is probably out of the ordinary, but might be helpful. We're good! Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 6/23/2014 3:08 PM, Norm Keller wrote:

I'm getting the feeling that I may have said or done something which was disrespectful or rude. If so, I humbly and abjectly apologize. In short, I would never apply anything either rude or disrespectful to conversation with you because of the huge respect in which you are held.   I wanted to either assure or to discover what I might need to do to fix any offense I may have given.   Things by text can go badly off the rails so wanted to check to see.   Norm       ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] robert@... [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com ; normkel32@... [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, June 23, 2014 12:24 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES??? I meant going to Sears or Pep Boys and asking them to put the scope on the bike, Norm. I would think primary and secondary would be the way to go, but the scope operator (ask him to come from the retirement home for one afternoon) should be able to figure out how to do that with a wiring diagram. It won't be free. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/23/2014 10:22 AM, 'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:   Robert, are you trying Sears or Pep Boys to get someone to do a scope test on the bike or to buy a scope?   Hope it didn't sound as though I was disputing anything you said. I was simply requesting more information as you always have a very effective perspective on matters.   I agree about the trouble code as can't seem to find an adapter for my scanner either. Live data stream would be handy.   One could use the computer's sound card with free application to display wave forms. That might get you some of the information you require. I jury rigged a set-up to do this with some success but so long ago that can't recall details. If I was successful, you certainly won't have any problems. "There's nothing in this world that I love more, and this includes my family, than an over extended metaphor."   Penn Jillette

[Norm Keller]

I sometimes use a timing light for that purpose. Good suggestion, Greg!   One caution regarding timing lights, in addition to they're getting to be uncommon in shops, is that a timing light will sometimes misfire on a good ignition. Some makes of inductive pick up timing lights won't flash on racing magnetos, FWIW. I used to sell many Mac lights because the Sn**** (won't mention the make) high end light wouldn't work on those systems. Nothing wrong with the light, just not intended for that use.   An inline neon type spark checker will usually be more reliable, IME. Simple to make certain that your timing light's indication of a misfire is accurate. Simply try the light on another KLR. If it flashes reliably there, you should be on solid ground.   This type of checker belongs in everyone's tools, IMO. One does have to screw a cap into the spark plug but a piece of hose does that without removing the plug. I've ground down the end of mine to allow the KLR spark plug cap to slide onto the end. Threaded the area so can screw a spark plug cap onto it for doing outboards.   http://www.harborfreight.com/90-inline-ignition-spark-checker-69023.html           "There's nothing in this world that I love more, and this includes my family, than an over extended metaphor."   Penn Jillette

[James W. Flower]

Robert-  Like this $140 one, http://www.sears.com/riorand-arm-rrdso201-pro-digital-storage-oscilloscope-8m/p-SPM8623944432?prdNo=8&blockNo=8&blockType=G8? Or these ($533, $700, $900)?  http://www.sears.com/search=owon%20hds2062m-n%2060%20mhz%20handheld%20digital%20storage%20oscilloscope?catalogId=12605&storeId=10153&levels=Tools_Electricians+Tools_Test+%26+Measuring+Tools&autoRedirect=true&viewItems=50&redirectType=CAT_REC&prop17=Owon%20HDS2062M-N%2060%20MHz%20Handheld%20Digital%20Storage%20Oscilloscope.-James On Jun 24, 2014, at 9:43 PM, RobertWichert wrote:

Pep Boys or Sears.  Hope somebody still knows how to hook it up! Ha! Robert P. Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&CHERS I & HERS IICEPE & CEA RES & NON-RES +1 916 966 9060FAX +1 916 966 9068 On Jun 24, 2014, at 9:31 PM, "James W. Flower" wrote: Robert- Three out of the four local moto shops say they have no 'scope.  The fourth I haven't asked yet, but the first three say the fourth is also scopeless.-James On Jun 24, 2014, at 7:02 AM, RobertWichert wrote: I still say "Scope it" if you can find a shop that will do it, but you may have found the problem and not know it.  A loose connection (any loose connection, even at the diode) can cause intermittent problems.  Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/23/2014 11:26 PM, 'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:   I'm the one with the high rpm miss on my A13. I'm kibbitzing on the oscilloscope thread, and I did say I'd ask the local shops about it, partly because your discussion is way over my head. They open tomorrow, but read on: I may not call. I tried to use a timing light and so much oil spewed out of the access hole that I couldn't even begin to get a reading. Perhaps the tilt of the sidestand was enough to cause the gusher. I have a stand that holds the bike upright, but I'm not sure it's stable enough to use while the bike is running. I have no clue how to ride the bike with a timing light hooked up to it, as it seemed someone here was suggesting. But meanwhile, I replaced the diode unit with another, used, one, just because it only cost $10 on eBay. Then I did a two ten-mile test ride at 5000 rpm. The miss has always started within two miles, but it didn't appear at all. To make sure it was the diode unit that fixed the problem, I put the old one back in, and made the exact same ten-mile ride; if the miss reappeared, I'd be satisfied that I'd found the problem. Surprise, surprise: the miss did not return. Yesterday I did a six-mile test, still with the original diode installed: still no miss. So, what fixed the problem? I have no idea. The good news is it's fixed. The bad news is, since I didn't find the cause, I have no way of knowing the odds of it reccurring. So, do I turn a blind eye to the gift horse and take the 200 to 400-mile trips I'd been planning? Or do I continue to check and/or replace components, etc., hoping to find a bad one, though I'm experiencing no symptoms? (The si x-mile test yesterday was at the end of a 200-mile day trip during which I never ran above 4500 and never had the problem, she ran like a top. Only on last leg was I on freeway, and as I say, no miss. ?!?!?!?!?!?.) -James

[James W. Flower]

Thanks, but I guess there's no need now that the problem has somehow disappeared. I guess I inadvertently cleaned a contact somewhere and accidentally fixed it! -James