my oil burning problem......what?

[sopris_2000]

I'm not sure I agree with Fred only selling parts a person needs. He has sold me parts for my wife's KLR and mine that have caused us to go to Mexico/Central America twice. Tonight we are just south of Mexico City, we'll be riding into the city tomorrow morn. Our bikes are so loaded full of Fred parts, I don't know what to do. Probably when we get back into Moab at the end of this month, I'll have to have him put on new chains and sprockets and probably tire of some sort ( and who knows whatever new stuff he'll have stocked by then). Be careful of this character. His store is KLR fanatics dream and he sells plenty of farkle (fancy accessory, really cool, likely expensive). And he has never told me to stop buying the stuff he sells. Be careful of Fred

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Hink" wrote: > > Thanks but I have my own biases. I believe in taking care of those that take care of me. I don t mind talking someone out of spending money with me if it means they end up with the parts they need rather than what they want. > > Fred > www.arrowheadmotorsports.com > > > > From: Jeffrey > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 3:58 PM > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] My oil burning problem. > > > Fred tells it like it is. He doesn't have the marketing bias of other KLR discussion bias. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

[RobertWichert]

Some have said the increase in compression when doing the 685 made most of the power difference. That makes tremendous sense. Smoothness? I don't know where that would come from. Is there any improvement to the balancer? It could be lighter piston / rod. Are they lighter? Robert P. Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068

On Apr 4, 2012, at 4:54 PM, Jeff Saline wrote: > David, > > Here's my take on some of this conversation. > > The hole in the air box probably allowed dirt into the combustion chamber > causing excessive/accelerated wear to the cylinder walls. The fix is to > remove the cylinder and measure it to four digits as in 0.0001". If the > person measuring can't do it to that degree you should find someone else. > I've measured a few KLR cylinders and all of them were tapered and out > of round. I have only bored one cylinder (mine) when doing a 685 kit on > my KLR a few years ago. When boring the job must be done without getting > the cylinder hot. Torque plates are not required on a KLR cylinder. > > Valve seals on a KLR are not known to leak. The valve system (shim over > bucket) is very sturdy and there are virtually no side stresses placed on > the valve/valve guide. I too had an oil use issue on my KLR and it > started at the same time I had a significant high heat issue when > returning from the Hole-In-The-Wall (the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance > Kid hideout in Wyoming) in June 2007. I thought the valves seals might > have got cooked. I bought four seals since I was going to be in the top > end of the engine. When I got to the seals they were still like new and > there was no indication of them passing oil. I replaced them anyway as > at $11 per seal I wasn't about to leave them on the shelf. > > What I found on MY KLR that I think was causing the oil use was the top > two rings had the gaps lined up one over the other. The three oil rings > also had their gaps lined up about 90 off the top ring gaps. I'm > comfortable in suggesting that was the cause of my oil use. I still have > that cylinder and piston incase someone with a problem is passing through > and really needs some help. I think it would still work with good > results. > > I too have heard about folks claiming Rotella dino oil reduces oil use. > For the record I have been using Rotella for quite a few years and > multiple times have also spent money on oil analysis to gather data on > oil and engine condition in my bike with my riding conditions. I'll > suggest that Rotella is not the answer to oil use issues but at the same > time won't hurt anything either. I'll also suggest there is no oil that > is the answer to oil use issues. > > If I was going to try to address an oil use issue on the cheap I'd > probably contact one of the guys supplying 685 kits with bored cylinders. > I'd ask if they had any used cylinder/piston exchanges that might be > good enough to install on a bike like yours. I could see them letting > you have one for not much more than the cost of shipping and the exchange > of your cylinder and piston. You might be able to improve the situation > for not much more than the cost of gaskets, postage and labor. > > With oil use like you are experiencing I think any oil would be > appropriate for your bike. It'll be like doing an oil change every 566 > miles based on your 3/4 quart of use in 170 miles. I'd use the least > expensive oil I could find. I would make sure it was at least a 40 > weight. > > For whomever suggested the 685 kit doesn't exhibit a significant > improvement in smoothness I'll suggest they've never ridden one. My > first impression when I did my 685 was the difference was like the > difference between lawnmower smooth and sewing machine smooth. I noticed > it in the first 1/4 mile of break in ride. The power is also a bit more > than a stock 650 and I find I don't have to plan quite as much getting > ready to pass. Just a smooth roll on of the throttle is usually enough > to move my bike right along. Other folks I've ridden with have commented > on how they can't accelerate at the same rate. I recall last August > doing a couple of roll on acceleration tests with Steve when we were in > Nebraska on a ride. Both bikes were loaded with full touring loads. I > could walk away from his bike. > > Don't let any of this sway you, it's still a KLR. : ) For the owner > wanting more power a different bike might be in order. > > Best, > > Jeff Saline > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 > > . > . > __________________________________________________________ > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33 > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f7cdf90bd04f53529st06vuc > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 21:00:57 -0700 RobertWichert writes:

> Some have said the increase in compression when doing the 685 made > most of the power difference. That makes tremendous sense. > Smoothness? I don't know where that would come from. Is there any > improvement to the balancer? It could be lighter piston / rod. Are > they lighter? > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C > +1 916 966 9060 > FAX +1 916 966 9068

<><><><><> <><><><><> Robert, I think I've heard the 685 piston is about 70+ grams lighter than a stock piston. There has also been discussion on another KLR forum that maybe the engine was set up as a KLR600 originally and when it was made into the KLR650 the only thing that changed was the displacement/top end. No change to the balancer system or crankshaft etc. I don't know that the compression ratio is much different from a stock KLR650. You can do a variety of base gaskets when doing the 685 with 0.020" being the norm and 0.010" being high compression and 0.020" plus 0.010" for a total of 0.030" being a bit low on compression but maybe needed for really poor fuel quality. The power increase doesn't seem to be a big selling point with the 685 set up. What many folks speak about is the reduction of perceived vibration and correcting oil use issues. I think the oil use issue fix might be the more popular reason for doing the 685 kit. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 . . ____________________________________________________________ 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33 The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f7d20cc6e6de6d4d0st04vuc

[Jeff Khoury]

When Sylvain stopped by on his way through he mentioned a modest power increase and a significant increase in smoothness with the 685. That's typical of what I've read from others.

[ron criswell]

I have used Rotella dino 15W 40w in my KLR and Concours with no oil use problems and cruising at 5200 - 5300 rpm for hours on end. Currently I have 54,000 miles n the KLR. Criswell Sent from my iPad

On Apr 4, 2012, at 5:06 PM, AR Cooper wrote: > Rotella is cheap, well relatively. Try it see for > yourself. I have used synthetic 5w40 is several older bikes and 15W40, > for me at least results in lower oil consumption. > > On 4/4/2012 5:56 PM, David Nichols wrote: > > > > Wise words Fred, thanks. > > > > Now...what about that person who suggested that 15w40 Rotella will > > reduce oil usage? Sounds like snake oil to me... > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Fred Hink > > > To: David Nichols > >; KLR Group > > DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > > Cc: "Cox, John" >; > > Jeff Khoury > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:49 PM > > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] My oil burning problem. > > > > > > I have bored and finished many cylinders in my day and I know what > > makes a > > good bore and a not so good bore. The problem with the KLR650 cylinder > > according to Eldon Carl is that the KLR cylinder is supported from the > > top and > > the bottom and nothing in the middle. The KLR cylinder on some bike have > > been known to use excessive amounts of oil because the cylinder > > becomes out of > > round. Boring the cylinder will make it round but the more material you > > take off this cylinder the more it seems it will become less stabile. > > Going to a big bore kit will make it temporarily round but for how long? > > Sure you hear all the stories about how someone has this big bore kit > > done and > > their oil usage miraculously disappears, the same thing would happen > > if they had > > a rebore to the first or second oversized standard piston. Going to the > > largest size on a rebore at the start is something you don t do > > because that > > eliminates all the other chances of repairing the cylinder. If you > > need to > > have the big bore cylinder rebored, then what do you do? If you > > understand > > that once you put in a big bore kit then there are few alternatives > > for another > > rebore, it is your money and you can use it anyway you like. > > > > Fred > > www.arrowheadmotorsports.com > > > > > > From: David Nichols > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 3:35 PM > > To: KLR Group > > Cc: Cox, John ; Jeff Khoury > > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] My oil burning problem. > > > > There are no oil leaks, my garage floor is bone dry where I park the > > bike. > > Also, I recently adjusted the valve clearances. I will tear it down > > myself and > > get it inspected and measured before I do anything. I'm just the type > > to plan > > ahead for the worst... > > > > I'm suspecting the unfiltered air has caused this. > > I forgot to add the air filter in it was held together with a zip tie. > > The DPO > > wasn't the brightest... > > I knew about the condition of this bike going in. If > > you recall, I only paid $500 for this bike and so far I'm only $1,100 > > into > > it. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "Cox, John" > > To: > > Jeff Khoury ; David > > Nichols > > Cc: KLR Group > > Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:23 PM > > Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] My oil > > burning problem. > > > > And related to Fred s post, the boring process for > > the 685 is not trivial to ensure a round hole. EM does a lot of them and > > knows how to do it/have it done properly. > > > > If you re short on cash > > but have the tools and ability you might want to tear the top end down > > and have > > a look at the rings and cylinder. > > > > Also check the output shaft seal > > at the counter sprocket the oil drain plug, and any other place leaked > > oil could > > be. > > > > When you checked the valves were any of them tight (no/low > > clearance?) > > > > > > -john > > > > From:mailto:DSN_KLR650%40yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:mailto:DSN_KLR650%40yahoogroups.com] > > On Behalf Of Jeff Khoury > > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 2:16 PM > > To: David > > Nichols > > Cc: KLR Group > > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] My oil burning > > problem. > > > > > > I don't think (the last time I checked) that > > Schnitz does the cylinder swap. You'd have to buy the kit and send > > your cylinder > > out for boring. EM keeps a few on hand and will send you an already bored > > cylinder with the kit, and you send him yours to bore and put on the > > shelf. > > > > That's what the extra $100.00 is for. > > > > > > > > -Jeff > > Khoury > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Nichols" > > To: > > "Jeff Khoury" , "KLR Group" > > > > Sent: > > Wednesday, April 4, 2012 2:08:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] My oil burning > > problem. > > > > Thanks, I've considered that. It's not in my current budget, so > > I guess I'll just keep adding oil for now. What about the valve seals? > > Should I > > replace them at the same time as the 685 kit? Also, why buy from Eagle > > Mike > > since Schnitz Racing makes it for him? I could buy directly from Schnitz. > > > > From: Jeff Khoury > > To: david > > r nichols > > Cc: DSN KLR650 > > Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 3:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] My oil > > burning problem. > > > > Without knowing the details, I would say you may have a > > cylinder/ring problem. That's a LOT of oil. Even the '08s don't burn > > that much. > > > > Personally, If I were to tear into it as far as replacing rings I would > > just do a 685 kit and be done with it. It's $400.00 with cylinder > > exchange from > > EM, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that you'd burn no more oil, in > > addition to > > all the other benefits. > > > > That's what I would do if it were my bike, my > > time and my money. > > > > -Jeff Khoury > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "david r nichols" < mailto:david.r.nichols%40sbcglobal.net > > > To: "DSN KLR650" < mailto:DSN_KLR650%40yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 11:50:06 AM > > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] My > > oil burning problem. > > > > Does anyone have any thoughts on why my KLR is > > using so much oil? It used about 3/4 a quart on a 170 mile ride (all > > on road). > > The stats are: It had been sitting since 2007 when I bought it, ODO > > shows 13,000 > > miles. I have recently put about 300 miles on it. When I bought it it > > had a hole > > in the airbox that the exhaust had melted. This was letting unfiltered > > air in. I > > have no idea how long it was ridden in this condition. When I adjusted > > the > > valves, the cams looked brand new, mirror like finish. I am using > > Valvoline > > synthetic oil 15w40 weight. Someone has suggested I use 15w40 Rotella > > to reduce > > oil usage. Why would that make any difference? Do you think I need to > > get new > > rings and valve seals? > > > > -David > > > > [Non-text portions of this message > > have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[pdstreeter@mmm.com]

david.r.nichols@... wrote:

>Does anyone have any thoughts on why my KLR is using so much oil? It used

about

>3/4 a quart on a 170 mile ride (all on road). The stats are: It had been

sitting

>since 2007 when I bought it, ODO shows 13,000 miles. I have recently put

about

>300 miles on it. When I bought it it had a hole in the airbox that the

exhaust

>had melted. This was letting unfiltered air in. I have no idea how long it

was

>ridden in this condition. When I adjusted the valves, the cams looked

brand new,

>mirror like finish. I am using Valvoline synthetic oil 15w40 weight.

Someone has

>suggested I use 15w40 Rotella to reduce oil usage. Why would that make any >difference? Do you think I need to get new rings and valve seals?

If the bike has been sitting for 5 years without running, and you've only put 170 miles on it since then, I'd suspect that it has sticky rings. I'd think it would be worth trying some Marvel Mystery Oil, or Seafoam or some kind of snake oil to try to loosen up the rings before you tear the top end apart. Are you sure the hole in the airbox is letting unfiltered air to the motor? Usually, the exhaust pipe burns a hole right above the head pipe / muffler connection. If I remember right, that's on the dirty side of the filter. I've rebuilt the top end on two oil-burning KLR's. One had just burned exhaust valves, the other needed an overbore, new valves and seats ground. You should be able to ask any motorcycle mechanic for a recommendation on a shop that will do boring and valve jobs. Good luck, Paul Streeter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[David Nichols]

Paul, Thanks, I am certain it was on the unfiltered air side. See the photo link below. I think the hot exhaust gasses leaking burned a hole at that location. It was forward of the (too short) OEM metal heat shield. Why did Kawasaki not make the metal heat shield 2 inches longer? I've since bought a new (to me) airbox and I have the heat tile coating the bottom of it as well as making sure my exhaust isn't leaking. I am using Sea Foam both in the gas tank and the crankcase. I am hoping the rings will come unstuck on their own, but as Fred can attest, I plan ahead for worst case...and probably over think things. It's my engineering background, I can't help myself. -David Photo of airbox hole: http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh482/nichodr/C360_2012-02-29-17-40-39.jpg ________________________________ From: "pdstreeter@..." To: david.r.nichols@...; DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2012 8:45 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: My oil burning problem. david.r.nichols@... wrote:

>Does anyone have any thoughts on why my KLR is using so much oil? It used

about

>3/4 a quart on a 170 mile ride (all on road). The stats are: It had been

sitting

>since 2007 when I bought it, ODO shows 13,000 miles. I have recently put

about

>300 miles on it. When I bought it it had a hole in the airbox that the

exhaust

>had melted. This was letting unfiltered air in. I have no idea how long it

was

>ridden in this condition. When I adjusted the valves, the cams looked

brand new,

>mirror like finish. I am using Valvoline synthetic oil 15w40 weight.

Someone has

>suggested I use 15w40 Rotella to reduce oil usage. Why would that make any >difference? Do you think I need to get new rings and valve seals?

If the bike has been sitting for 5 years without running, and you've only put 170 miles on it since then, I'd suspect that it has sticky rings. I'd think it would be worth trying some Marvel Mystery Oil, or Seafoam or some kind of snake oil to try to loosen up the rings before you tear the top end apart. Are you sure the hole in the airbox is letting unfiltered air to the motor? Usually, the exhaust pipe burns a hole right above the head pipe / muffler connection. If I remember right, that's on the dirty side of the filter. I've rebuilt the top end on two oil-burning KLR's. One had just burned exhaust valves, the other needed an overbore, new valves and seats ground. You should be able to ask any motorcycle mechanic for a recommendation on a shop that will do boring and valve jobs. Good luck, Paul Streeter [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[RobertWichert]

Jeff, 70 g is significant. If you know the weight of the stock piston, please enlighten (HA!) me. Percentage change would be nice to know, but 70 g is certainly a benefit. If that better matches the balancer, then there you go! I have been told (I forget who said it) that you should always "use the thinnest gasket to get the highest compression to see the most gains". This is perfectly reasonable. If you look at the difference in displacement, 685/650, it's about 5% larger. Since there aren 't larger valves (there aren't are there?) and no porting is involved (there isn't, right?) and the redline doesn't go up, the HP is going to go up by 5%. 5% may be something you can feel, just maybe. Let's say the KLR is 40 HP stock, for argument. A 5% increase is 2 HP. Can you feel 2 HP? Yeah, maybe a little, but maybe not. It will be less at lower RPM, so any "it's the mid range where you really feel it" isn't going to make sense given the inputs. At mid range it's going to be 1 HP, maybe, and probably not enough to notice. Torque is HP divided by RPM, so getting more torque with more displacement is a given, but the torque curve isn't going to change unless you change the cam, the valves, the airbox (stock is probably higher midrange torque), or the exhaust (stock is probably higher midrange torque). So any idea that "midrange torque is much better" is also probably not going to match the inputs. 5% is all you are going to get with just displacement. Compression could increase that 2 HP to 5 HP, maybe. That's enough to feel, I think. You can play around with that here: http://www.bgsoflex.com/crchange.html . Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 4/4/2012 9:31 PM, Jeff Saline wrote: > On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 21:00:57 -0700 RobertWichert > writes: >> Some have said the increase in compression when doing the 685 made >> most of the power difference. That makes tremendous sense. >> Smoothness? I don't know where that would come from. Is there any >> improvement to the balancer? It could be lighter piston / rod. Are >> they lighter? >> >> Robert P. Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C >> +1 916 966 9060 >> FAX +1 916 966 9068 > <><><><><> > <><><><><> > > Robert, > > I think I've heard the 685 piston is about 70+ grams lighter than a stock > piston. There has also been discussion on another KLR forum that maybe > the engine was set up as a KLR600 originally and when it was made into > the KLR650 the only thing that changed was the displacement/top end. No > change to the balancer system or crankshaft etc. > > I don't know that the compression ratio is much different from a stock > KLR650. You can do a variety of base gaskets when doing the 685 with > 0.020" being the norm and 0.010" being high compression and 0.020" plus > 0.010" for a total of 0.030" being a bit low on compression but maybe > needed for really poor fuel quality. > > The power increase doesn't seem to be a big selling point with the 685 > set up. What many folks speak about is the reduction of perceived > vibration and correcting oil use issues. I think the oil use issue fix > might be the more popular reason for doing the 685 kit. > > Best, > > Jeff Saline > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 > > . > . > ____________________________________________________________ > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33 > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f7d20cc6eb066d5aest03vuc > > >

[Jeffrey]

so u are going to get as much power boost or more by opening up the airbox, doing some cheap carb mods, exhaust tweaks... as boring!

[Kenneth Edick]

I am currently in the process of completing my 688 upgrade because of the oil consumption problem. I will let the group know the outcome. Ken Colorado

On Apr 5, 2012, at 9:43 AM, Jeffrey wrote: > so u are going to get as much power boost or more by opening up the airbox, doing some cheap carb mods, exhaust tweaks... > > as boring! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]