digest number 11650

[h zerbes]

KLRista's, I'd like to pick your brains on this one: Situation: 95 model, 38000km. Brakes were working fine (within KLR parameters, that is) but it was time to change the front pads and fluid. When I applied the lever to get pressure on the brake pistons and then opened the bleeder valve at the caliper, no fluid was coming out, no matter how hard I pressed the lever. I then took the valve out completely to check if it was blocked (it looked good, is there a way to check it?). By then, the fluid was coming out of the bleeder valve orifice and soon drained the reservoir. I put the valve back in and refilled the reservoir but now cannot get any pressure on lever, now matter how many times I pump (200+ so far). Any ideas what might be wrong or how to proceed? I don't think the master cylinder has a problem, as it was working fine so far. What I noticed when the reservoir cap was off and I pumped, some fluid squirted out of the reservoir (and onto the tank). Is that common? Now that there is no pressure at all, nothing squirts anymore. Cheers, heinz

[spike55_bmw]

Almost seems like an O-ring / gasket has slipped in the master cylinder. Go back and open up the bleeder valve at the caliper and pump the brake lever? If it still squirts out but you can't get any pressure at the brake lever when the bleeder is closed, then I'd say you have an air bubble. If it doesn't squirt out at the caliper when you pump the brake lever, then I'd look at the reservoir's piston, O-rings, etc for the lack of a good seal. Don R100, A6F

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, h zerbes wrote: > > KLRista's, > > I'd like to pick your brains on this one: > > Situation: > 95 model, 38000km. > > Brakes were working fine (within KLR parameters, that is) but it was time to > change the front pads and fluid. > > When I applied the lever to get pressure on the brake pistons and then opened > the bleeder valve at the caliper, no fluid was coming out, no matter how hard I > pressed the lever. I then took the valve out completely to check if it was > blocked (it looked good, is there a way to check it?). > > By then, the fluid was coming out of the bleeder valve orifice and soon drained > the reservoir. I put the valve back in and refilled the reservoir but now cannot > get any pressure on lever, now matter how many times I pump (200+ so far). > > Any ideas what might be wrong or how to proceed? I don't think the master > cylinder has a problem, as it was working fine so far. > > What I noticed when the reservoir cap was off and I pumped, some fluid squirted > out of the reservoir (and onto the tank). Is that common? > Now that there is no pressure at all, nothing squirts anymore. > > Cheers, > heinz >

[Eric J Foster]

Bike bleeding is a PITA! The service manual probably calls for a vacuum type bleeder to suck the fluid through. You can also look for a "one man brake bleeder" at most auto stores, it'll help, but is not a quick answer. A good suck is always better. If you let it sit there long enough with fluid in the reservoir, it will at some point work it's way down through. As you've figured out, once you crack the valve, never leave it unattended! E

[Michael Martin]

Heinz, It sounds like there is air in the master cylinder bore. Here's a write-up I once did on the subject. The second half of it, bleeding the system, should cover your situation. http://home.insightbb.com/~mmartin36/Bleed.htm As far as your question about the bleeder valve, this part is a simple part, like a bolt with a hole drilled down its centerline. Then there is another hole drilled from the side of it which intersects the first hole. If you poke a wire down the first hole, you will be able to see the tip of the wire through the side hole. If this description doesn't match the part you have, then you may have a Speedbleeder, which has a spring loaded ball in it to assist bleeding. Other than forcing air or fluid through the part, I don't have a suggestion for checking its operation. However, I do not think it's likely that this part is your problem. HTH, Mike Martin, Louisville, KY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Eddie]

If fluid began coming out the bleeder hole once the bleeder was removed, yes. The bleeder is likely clogged. I've run a fine piece of wire (paper clip, safety wire, what have you) through them and then flushed it with spray brake cleaner. Before reinstalling it, take some plumber's teflon pipe tape (about a dollar a roll at a hardware store) and wrap the threads a couple of turns being extra careful not to block the hole(s) along the length of the threaded portion. The tape will help keep air out during the bleeding process. That you got a small fountain of fluid out the top of the reservoir at least once means the system is building and releasing pressure as it should. See the tiny hole in the bottom of the cleaned master cylinder? That's the relief hole. Some master cylinders such as Honda, Suzuki, etc... have a small metal device that hovers over the hole to prevent the fluid from streaming outside the reservoir. I've used a valve clearance feeler guage resting over the hole to prevent this on bikes that don't have the device. Any strip of metal will do. Got a soda or beer can handy? Cut a strip from it and rest it over the hole. Remove when you're done. You likely had a bunch of air introduced to the system when the fluid ran out. Now, you have to remove it. Air wants to rise in a fluid. Pumping the fluid downward to push the bubbles out can work - if the bubbles are small enough. But, it sounds like you have a a BIG bubble in the line. If you have access to a Mity-Vac hand vacuum pump, you could connect it to the caliper bleeder, build up vaccum and then crack open the bleeder slowly while adding fluid to the reservoir. The vaccum pump can and will suck the system dry very quickly. So, a helper refilling the res. could come in handy. No pump? Try this. It's cheap and works. Go to an auto parts store and obtain a mechanic's syringe. It looks like a large plastic hypodermic without any needle. Connect a small diameter hose to it - windshield washer or aquarium air line tubing will work - and then attach the free end to the bleeder. Extract the syringe plunger and while holding it upright, pour in some brake fluid and tap out any bubbles trapped in the line. Now for the tricky part. Have a helper dry out the master cylinder with a paper towel and stand by to mop out any potentially overflowing fluid. Carefully replace the plunger on the syringe and slowly depress it while opening the bleeder a turn - pushing fluid up through the brake line. The bubbles will come with it. Keeping the res. from over flowing, push through a couple of ounces of fluid until it comes up fairly bubble free. Lock down the bleeder, remove the syringe/hose and see what kind of handle pressure you have then. It should be in the good to great range. Enough to bleed things the old fashioned way "pump, hold, bleeder release, tighten bleeder, repeat." Good luck and have fun! =) eddie

> [Original Message] > From: h zerbes > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > Date: 3/4/2011 3:21:08 AM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] front brake bleeding problem > > KLRista's, > > I'd like to pick your brains on this one: > > Situation: > 95 model, 38000km. > > Brakes were working fine (within KLR parameters, that is) but it was time

to

> change the front pads and fluid. > > When I applied the lever to get pressure on the brake pistons and then

opened

> the bleeder valve at the caliper, no fluid was coming out, no matter how

hard I

> pressed the lever. I then took the valve out completely to check if it was > blocked (it looked good, is there a way to check it?). > > By then, the fluid was coming out of the bleeder valve orifice and soon

drained

> the reservoir. I put the valve back in and refilled the reservoir but now

cannot

> get any pressure on lever, now matter how many times I pump (200+ so far). > > Any ideas what might be wrong or how to proceed? I don't think the master > cylinder has a problem, as it was working fine so far. > > What I noticed when the reservoir cap was off and I pumped, some fluid

squirted

> out of the reservoir (and onto the tank). Is that common? > Now that there is no pressure at all, nothing squirts anymore. > > Cheers, > heinz > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > List Sponsors - Dual Sport News: http://www.dualsportnews.com > Arrowhead Motorsports: http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok: http://www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSN_KLR650/app/peoplemap/view/map

> Group Apps:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSN_KLR650/grouplets/subscriptionsYahoo! Groups Links

> > >

[mark ward]

Teflon tape....As Eddies said, jus a couple pf wraps, some people think the more the better, NOT! Too much and it will just cut and bunch up, pushing it aside. NOT good. Unless you have a WORN loose fitting, then use as a temp fix. two wraps should be great. Follow the trun of the threads, so it doesn't back off. DUHHH??? some things we write like it's to a person of NO KNOWLEDGE, thats becuase we have no idea of each person knowledge, AND that many are reading and LEARNING... ..ALOT, years of wrenching, And I still learn new tricks everyday, some should have been BASICS yrs ago. ENJOY

--- On Fri, 3/4/11, eddie wrote: From: eddie Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] front brake bleeding problem To: "KLR650 list" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, March 4, 2011, 3:28 PM If fluid began coming out the bleeder hole once the bleeder was removed, yes. The bleeder is likely clogged. I've run a fine piece of wire (paper clip, safety wire, what have you) through them and then flushed it with spray brake cleaner. Before reinstalling it, take some plumber's teflon pipe tape (about a dollar a roll at a hardware store) and wrap the threads a couple of turns being extra careful not to block the hole(s) along the length of the threaded portion. The tape will help keep air out during the bleeding process. That you got a small fountain of fluid out the top of the reservoir at least once means the system is building and releasing pressure as it should. See the tiny hole in the bottom of the cleaned master cylinder? That's the relief hole. Some master cylinders such as Honda, Suzuki, etc... have a small metal device that hovers over the hole to prevent the fluid from streaming outside the reservoir. I've used a valve clearance feeler guage resting over the hole to prevent this on bikes that don't have the device. Any strip of metal will do. Got a soda or beer can handy? Cut a strip from it and rest it over the hole. Remove when you're done. You likely had a bunch of air introduced to the system when the fluid ran out. Now, you have to remove it. Air wants to rise in a fluid. Pumping the fluid downward to push the bubbles out can work - if the bubbles are small enough. But, it sounds like you have a a BIG bubble in the line. If you have access to a Mity-Vac hand vacuum pump, you could connect it to the caliper bleeder, build up vaccum and then crack open the bleeder slowly while adding fluid to the reservoir. The vaccum pump can and will suck the system dry very quickly. So, a helper refilling the res. could come in handy. No pump? Try this. It's cheap and works. Go to an auto parts store and obtain a mechanic's syringe. It looks like a large plastic hypodermic without any needle. Connect a small diameter hose to it - windshield washer or aquarium air line tubing will work - and then attach the free end to the bleeder. Extract the syringe plunger and while holding it upright, pour in some brake fluid and tap out any bubbles trapped in the line. Now for the tricky part. Have a helper dry out the master cylinder with a paper towel and stand by to mop out any potentially overflowing fluid. Carefully replace the plunger on the syringe and slowly depress it while opening the bleeder a turn - pushing fluid up through the brake line. The bubbles will come with it. Keeping the res. from over flowing, push through a couple of ounces of fluid until it comes up fairly bubble free. Lock down the bleeder, remove the syringe/hose and see what kind of handle pressure you have then. It should be in the good to great range. Enough to bleed things the old fashioned way "pump, hold, bleeder release, tighten bleeder, repeat." Good luck and have fun! =) eddie > [Original Message] > From: h zerbes > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > Date: 3/4/2011 3:21:08 AM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] front brake bleeding problem > > KLRista's, > > I'd like to pick your brains on this one: > > Situation: > 95 model, 38000km. > > Brakes were working fine (within KLR parameters, that is) but it was time to > change the front pads and fluid. > > When I applied the lever to get pressure on the brake pistons and then opened > the bleeder valve at the caliper, no fluid was coming out, no matter how hard I > pressed the lever. I then took the valve out completely to check if it was > blocked (it looked good, is there a way to check it?). > > By then, the fluid was coming out of the bleeder valve orifice and soon drained > the reservoir. I put the valve back in and refilled the reservoir but now cannot > get any pressure on lever, now matter how many times I pump (200+ so far). > > Any ideas what might be wrong or how to proceed? I don't think the master > cylinder has a problem, as it was working fine so far. > > What I noticed when the reservoir cap was off and I pumped, some fluid squirted > out of the reservoir (and onto the tank). Is that common? > Now that there is no pressure at all, nothing squirts anymore. > > Cheers, > heinz > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > List Sponsors - Dual Sport News: http://www.dualsportnews.com > Arrowhead Motorsports: http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok: http://www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSN_KLR650/app/peoplemap/view/map > Group Apps: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSN_KLR650/grouplets/subscriptionsYahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Eddie]

=) As Mark says, I wrote not knowing Heinz' level of experience. Brakes can be frustrating even for a seasoned mechanic. Like I tell my trainees in a credit card processor computer room, any day you learn at least a little something is a good day. What I don't know is a LOT. And I've been at it for nearly 22 years. eddie Snip from Mark's post.>> Teflon tape....As Eddies said, jus a couple pf wraps, some people think the more the better, NOT! Too much and it will just cut and bunch up, pushing it aside. NOT good. Unless you have a WORN loose fitting, then use as a temp fix. two wraps should be great. Follow the trun of the threads, so it doesn't back off. DUHHH??? some things we write like it's to a person of NO KNOWLEDGE, thats becuase we have no idea of each person knowledge, AND that many are reading and LEARNING... ..ALOT, years of wrenching, And I still learn new tricks everyday, some should have been BASICS yrs ago. ENJOY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Ahrens]

Putting Teflon tape on brake bleeder fittings does not accomplish anything; the sealing is done between the pointy end of the brake bleeder and a tapered seat in the brake housing. If the seat or bleeder is damaged, tape will not help. The threads are not tapered like pipe thread. Bill Ahrens Race Chairman Emeritus Tucson Sailing Club _____ From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eddie Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 9:18 AM To: KLR650 list Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] front brake bleeding problem =) As Mark says, I wrote not knowing Heinz' level of experience. Brakes can be frustrating even for a seasoned mechanic. Like I tell my trainees in a credit card processor computer room, any day you learn at least a little something is a good day. What I don't know is a LOT. And I've been at it for nearly 22 years. eddie Snip from Mark's post.>> Teflon tape....As Eddies said, jus a couple pf wraps, some people think the more the better, NOT! Too much and it will just cut and bunch up, pushing it aside. NOT good. Unless you have a WORN loose fitting, then use as a temp fix. two wraps should be great. Follow the trun of the threads, so it doesn't back off. DUHHH??? some things we write like it's to a person of NO KNOWLEDGE, thats becuase we have no idea of each person knowledge, AND that many are reading and LEARNING... ..ALOT, years of wrenching, And I still learn new tricks everyday, some should have been BASICS yrs ago. ENJOY [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _____ size=1 width="100%" noshade color="#9d9da1" align=center> No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3481 - Release Date: 03/04/11 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ian]

I'm no expert and can't explain why you couldn't pump fluid out at first, but I have had the same frustrating experience with more than one bike getting the master cylinder pumped up after changing to braided lines or replacing fluid. As near as I can figure out, it seems the master cylinder won't pump fluid without a little back pressure. In my frustration I disconnected the brake line and put my thumb on the master cylinder and it would begin to pump. I then reinstalled the line, pumped a few dozen times, and repeated until after maybe 400-500 pumps, and filling the reservoir five or six times, the line and caliper were full enough to provide the back pressure needed to actually bleed the system. I always use a small hose on the bleeder into a jar with two or three inches of fluid in it, to avoid sucking air back into the line. Some guys have some special power bleeders or other tricks to pump fluid into the system, sometimes up from the bottom, to avoid this hassle. A large syringe or something.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, h zerbes wrote: > > KLRista's, > > I'd like to pick your brains on this one: > > Situation: > 95 model, 38000km. > > Brakes were working fine (within KLR parameters, that is) but it was time to > change the front pads and fluid. > > When I applied the lever to get pressure on the brake pistons and then opened > the bleeder valve at the caliper, no fluid was coming out, no matter how hard I > pressed the lever. I then took the valve out completely to check if it was > blocked (it looked good, is there a way to check it?). > > By then, the fluid was coming out of the bleeder valve orifice and soon drained > the reservoir. I put the valve back in and refilled the reservoir but now cannot > get any pressure on lever, now matter how many times I pump (200+ so far). > > Any ideas what might be wrong or how to proceed? I don't think the master > cylinder has a problem, as it was working fine so far. > > What I noticed when the reservoir cap was off and I pumped, some fluid squirted > out of the reservoir (and onto the tank). Is that common? > Now that there is no pressure at all, nothing squirts anymore. > > Cheers, > heinz >

[Fred Hink]

Was the rubber cap on your bleeder valve? It is there to keep dirt and debris out of this valve. If that cap is missing, more than likely you have it plugged and will need to be cleaned out before it will bleed out brake fluid and or air from your caliper. I use a small drill bit by hand to remove anything inside the bleeder valve. There are also two small holes near the bottom that will need to be cleaned out too. Once you get the bleeder valve clean, then your other problem is that you have allowed air into your brake line. Since air wants to rise in your brake fluid and the front brake line rises from the master cylinder, the air gets trapped there and is hard to get bled out. If you are using the old standard, pump-pump-pump-hold-bleed-pump-pump etc. procedure, it can be done but as soon as you stop, you have lost all you have gained as the air rises back to the high spot in the brake line. You need to keep at it without stopping or go with a Mityvac or other type of vacuum procedure to get the air out of your system. Good luck. Fred www.arrowheadmotorsports.com From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of h zerbes Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 1:21 AM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] front brake bleeding problem KLRista's, I'd like to pick your brains on this one: Situation: 95 model, 38000km. Brakes were working fine (within KLR parameters, that is) but it was time to change the front pads and fluid. When I applied the lever to get pressure on the brake pistons and then opened the bleeder valve at the caliper, no fluid was coming out, no matter how hard I pressed the lever. I then took the valve out completely to check if it was blocked (it looked good, is there a way to check it?). By then, the fluid was coming out of the bleeder valve orifice and soon drained the reservoir. I put the valve back in and refilled the reservoir but now cannot get any pressure on lever, now matter how many times I pump (200+ so far). Any ideas what might be wrong or how to proceed? I don't think the master cylinder has a problem, as it was working fine so far. What I noticed when the reservoir cap was off and I pumped, some fluid squirted out of the reservoir (and onto the tank). Is that common? Now that there is no pressure at all, nothing squirts anymore. Cheers, heinz [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]