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DSN_KLR650
eddiebmauri
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 7:42 am

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by eddiebmauri » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:57 pm

OK, please bear in mind that this is my 1st KLR, and I am still learning. I have a question about Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires. I read in a book that, (paraphrased) "since the mid 80's, dual sports have been outfitted with tubeless tires. Tubeless tires run cooler and last longer, also they don't blow out suddenly like a tube tire. But, the biggest feature of a tubeless tire is that the puncture can in many cases be fixed with a plug (just like a care tire) and this quick fix method is faster and easier than messing with levers to pull a tire and fix or replace the tube." Am I correct so far? If so, then would a tubeless tire be a better choice for someone who mostly rides on cement? I read that the only real drawback to the tubeless tire is that they are a bear to remove and to inflate as they require high and fast air pressure to inflate. It seems to me that to plug and re-inflate is easier than pulling the tire and fixing or replacing the tube? And, the best feature is that tubeless tires deflate a bid slower than tubed tires when they go flat. What am I missing? It seems that tubeless tires might be a better choice for someone who rides mostly if not exclusively on cement? Any info would be appreciated. Eddie (03' KLR650 - "la poderosa")

Jeff Saline
Posts: 2246
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:02 pm

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by Jeff Saline » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:14 pm

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 01:57:28 -0000 "eddiebmauri" writes:
> OK, please bear in mind that this is my 1st KLR, and I am still > learning. I have a question about Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires. > > I read in a book that, (paraphrased) "since the mid 80's, dual > sports > have been outfitted with tubeless tires. Tubeless tires run cooler > and last longer, also they don't blow out suddenly like a tube tire. > > But, the biggest feature of a tubeless tire is that the puncture > can > in many cases be fixed with a plug (just like a care tire) and this > quick fix method is faster and easier than messing with levers to > pull > a tire and fix or replace the tube." > > Am I correct so far? If so, then would a tubeless tire be a > better > choice for someone who mostly rides on cement? I read that the > only > real drawback to the tubeless tire is that they are a bear to > remove > and to inflate as they require high and fast air pressure to > inflate. > > It seems to me that to plug and re-inflate is easier than pulling > the > tire and fixing or replacing the tube? And, the best feature is > that > tubeless tires deflate a bid slower than tubed tires when they go > flat. > > What am I missing? It seems that tubeless tires might be a better > choice for someone who rides mostly if not exclusively on cement? > > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Eddie (03' KLR650 - "la poderosa")
<><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><> Eddie, I'm short on time for a few days but I'd like to comment on this. I think there is a place for both tube and tubeless tires in motorcycling. I really like tubes for repairs when I'm traveling as I can be self reliant and I don't find it too tough to patch a tube. I've heard of folks having all kinds of trouble plugging a tubeless tire and many shops won't plug a tubeless tire for you as that is often considered unsafe. I do know folks that have plugged a tubeless tire on the road and used the tire for 5,000 plus more miles. I know others that go straight to the shop and buy a new tire. I would suggest a patch on the inside of the tubeless tire is normally safe way to continue using the tire. That's as much work as patching or replacing a tube. I suppose it could be a pick your own poison type situation. If you have a problem with the bead unseated that could prove very tough to re inflate a tire while on the side of the road. Sometimes it's just as tough to seat a bead in a shop even with a large air compressor and way to deliver large volumes of air. I can't speak to which type is worse when you get a flat. Every flat I've ever had has been on a tube type tire but that's because I've never owned/ridden a bike with a tubeless tire. : ) Although each flat I've had has been exciting, by not grabbing a handful of front brake or applying the rear brake I've been able to easily bring my bike to a stop in a safe manner. One issue I see for trying to run tubeless on a KLR wheel is the rim design isn't for running tubeless. The rim design calls for a tube to press the tire bead to the rim. I seem to recall hearing about someone sealing the spoke nipples so the rim will hold air. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

Jud Jones
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:52 pm

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by Jud Jones » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:22 pm

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "eddiebmauri" wrote:
> > OK, please bear in mind that this is my 1st KLR, and I am still > learning. I have a question about Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires. > > I read in a book that, (paraphrased) "since the mid 80's, dual sports > have been outfitted with tubeless tires. Tubeless tires run cooler > and last longer, also they don't blow out suddenly like a tube tire. > But, the biggest feature of a tubeless tire is that the puncture can > in many cases be fixed with a plug (just like a care tire) and this > quick fix method is faster and easier than messing with levers to pull > a tire and fix or replace the tube." > > Am I correct so far? If so, then would a tubeless tire be a better > choice for someone who mostly rides on cement? I read that the only > real drawback to the tubeless tire is that they are a bear to remove > and to inflate as they require high and fast air pressure to inflate. > > It seems to me that to plug and re-inflate is easier than pulling the > tire and fixing or replacing the tube? And, the best feature is that > tubeless tires deflate a bid slower than tubed tires when they go flat. > > What am I missing? It seems that tubeless tires might be a better > choice for someone who rides mostly if not exclusively on cement? > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Eddie (03' KLR650 - "la poderosa") >
You can't run a tire, even a "tubeless" tire, without a tube unless the rim will hold air. Most spoked rims will not hold air, so you have to run a tube, even with a "tubeless" tire, or else seal the rim so it will hold air. Every dual sport bike that I know of has spoked wheels. Some BMWs have spoked wheels that are designed to run tubeless, but those are the only ones I am aware of. Some experts will caution against running a tubeless tire on any rim that is not designed for tubeless use, because such rims, even those cast wheels that will retain air, do not have a bead retention shoulder that is supposed to keep the bead from unseating in the event of a flat. I have experienced flats with tubeless tires on such rims, and do not see why it should be more hazardous than a flat with a tube on the same rim. In most cases, I can't see an advantage to slow deflation; it only means it will take longer to find out you have a flat. With many tires, you may not even notice a flat if you are running an unladen bike at a moderate, fairly constant speed, say 50 to 60 mph. You may only notice the flat if you make a sudden maneuver, or slow to the point where centrifugal force will no longer expand the tire to its full diameter. Of course, I have never experienced a sudden blowout on a bike; that could be a whole different story.

Ronald Criswell
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:29 pm

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by Ronald Criswell » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:07 am

I met an old guy in Moab once that actually ran a tubeless tire without tube on a KLR. How? Lottsa silicone caulk on the spoke nipples and around the bead. A very unsafe way to run I have since heard. Criswell
On Mar 25, 2008, at 10:22 PM, Jud Jones wrote: > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "eddiebmauri" > wrote: > > > > OK, please bear in mind that this is my 1st KLR, and I am still > > learning. I have a question about Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires. > > > > I read in a book that, (paraphrased) "since the mid 80's, dual > sports > > have been outfitted with tubeless tires. Tubeless tires run cooler > > and last longer, also they don't blow out suddenly like a tube tire. > > But, the biggest feature of a tubeless tire is that the puncture can > > in many cases be fixed with a plug (just like a care tire) and this > > quick fix method is faster and easier than messing with levers to > pull > > a tire and fix or replace the tube." > > > > Am I correct so far? If so, then would a tubeless tire be a better > > choice for someone who mostly rides on cement? I read that the only > > real drawback to the tubeless tire is that they are a bear to remove > > and to inflate as they require high and fast air pressure to > inflate. > > > > It seems to me that to plug and re-inflate is easier than pulling > the > > tire and fixing or replacing the tube? And, the best feature is that > > tubeless tires deflate a bid slower than tubed tires when they go > flat. > > > > What am I missing? It seems that tubeless tires might be a better > > choice for someone who rides mostly if not exclusively on cement? > > > > Any info would be appreciated. > > > > Eddie (03' KLR650 - "la poderosa") > > > > You can't run a tire, even a "tubeless" tire, without a tube unless > the rim will hold air. Most > spoked rims will not hold air, so you have to run a tube, even with > a "tubeless" tire, or else > seal the rim so it will hold air. > > Every dual sport bike that I know of has spoked wheels. Some BMWs > have spoked wheels > that are designed to run tubeless, but those are the only ones I am > aware of. > > Some experts will caution against running a tubeless tire on any > rim that is not designed > for tubeless use, because such rims, even those cast wheels that > will retain air, do not > have a bead retention shoulder that is supposed to keep the bead > from unseating in the > event of a flat. I have experienced flats with tubeless tires on > such rims, and do not see > why it should be more hazardous than a flat with a tube on the same > rim. > > In most cases, I can't see an advantage to slow deflation; it only > means it will take longer > to find out you have a flat. With many tires, you may not even > notice a flat if you are > running an unladen bike at a moderate, fairly constant speed, say > 50 to 60 mph. You may > only notice the flat if you make a sudden maneuver, or slow to the > point where centrifugal > force will no longer expand the tire to its full diameter. Of > course, I have never > experienced a sudden blowout on a bike; that could be a whole > different story. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fred Hink
Posts: 2434
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 10:08 am

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by Fred Hink » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:54 am

GEE! Imagine that.... Anybody making plans for the KLR rally this year in Moab? The Canyonlands Motor Classic is where you can meet all sorts of old KLR riders from all over the place and see some very beautiful scenery to boot. This rally is always held the first weekend after Memorial Day. The CMC will be held May 29 - June 1 with a Tech Day on Saturday. If you need your Doohickey worked on or anything else needing attention, stop by my shop and have KLR guru Eagle Mike help you with any issues. Eagle Mike and Wolfman Eric will be serving dinner each night at my shop starting at 6pm. A good time will be had by all. http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/cmc.html Fred http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com http://s1.zetaboards.com/arrowhead
----- Original Message ----- From: Ronald Criswell To: Jud Jones Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:06 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires I met an old guy in Moab once....

Chris Norloff
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:10 am

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by Chris Norloff » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:42 am

What I've seen, wheels ("rims") for tubeless tires are typically cast metal, which are not as strong as old-style spoked wheels. Or is it more a matter of deforming, rather than cracking when overloaded? So off-road bikes use tubed tires with spoked wheels. BMW made spoked wheels for tubeless tires (the spoke went to a flange, rather than into the space where the tube is). Nice feature, but not sure I'd want to buy another BMW just to get that. Chris -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eddiebmauri Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:57 PM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires OK, please bear in mind that this is my 1st KLR, and I am still learning. I have a question about Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires. I read in a book that, (paraphrased) "since the mid 80's, dual sports have been outfitted with tubeless tires. Tubeless tires run cooler and last longer, also they don't blow out suddenly like a tube tire. But, the biggest feature of a tubeless tire is that the puncture can in many cases be fixed with a plug (just like a care tire) and this quick fix method is faster and easier than messing with levers to pull a tire and fix or replace the tube." Am I correct so far? If so, then would a tubeless tire be a better choice for someone who mostly rides on cement? I read that the only real drawback to the tubeless tire is that they are a bear to remove and to inflate as they require high and fast air pressure to inflate. It seems to me that to plug and re-inflate is easier than pulling the tire and fixing or replacing the tube? And, the best feature is that tubeless tires deflate a bid slower than tubed tires when they go flat. What am I missing? It seems that tubeless tires might be a better choice for someone who rides mostly if not exclusively on cement? Any info would be appreciated. Eddie (03' KLR650 - "la poderosa")

revmaaatin
Posts: 1727
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:07 pm

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by revmaaatin » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:48 am

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Jud Jones" wrote:
>
SNIP
> In most cases, I can't see an advantage to slow deflation; it only
means it will take longer
> to find out you have a flat. With many tires, you may not even
notice a flat if you are
> running an unladen bike at a moderate, fairly constant speed, say
50 to 60 mph. You may
> only notice the flat if you make a sudden maneuver, or slow to the
point where centrifugal
> force will no longer expand the tire to its full diameter. Of
course, I have never
> experienced a sudden blowout on a bike; that could be a whole
different story.
>
Hello Judd, and others, Reading this thread, it looks like an ideal time for a teaching moment, "There I was...." and what you did right or wrong to survive a flat-tire-at-speed. Let us learn from your experience. I don't recall that flat tires at speed as a topic discussed in the A-MSF course. shrug. An additional comment on your riding gear would be useful as well. Tell us your story--what you did right/wrong. Initial indications, etc. Those who did not survive...need not respond. cough. Personally, I have never experienced one, (I have always scheduled my flats in the garage) but from what everyone says, it can be (sic) 'Mr. Toad's Wild Ride'. revmaaatin.

Jud Jones
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:52 pm

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by Jud Jones » Wed Mar 26, 2008 4:10 pm

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "revmaaatin" wrote:
> > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Jud Jones" wrote: > > > SNIP > > In most cases, I can't see an advantage to slow deflation; it only > means it will take longer > > to find out you have a flat. With many tires, you may not even > notice a flat if you are > > running an unladen bike at a moderate, fairly constant speed, say > 50 to 60 mph. You may > > only notice the flat if you make a sudden maneuver, or slow to the > point where centrifugal > > force will no longer expand the tire to its full diameter. Of > course, I have never > > experienced a sudden blowout on a bike; that could be a whole > different story. > > > Hello Judd, and others, > > Reading this thread, it looks like an ideal time for a teaching > moment, "There I was...." and what you did right or wrong to survive > a flat-tire-at-speed. Let us learn from your experience. I don't > recall that flat tires at speed as a topic discussed in the A-MSF > course. shrug. An additional comment on your riding gear would be > useful as well. > > Tell us your story--what you did right/wrong. Initial indications, > etc. Those who did not survive...need not respond. cough. > > Personally, I have never experienced one, (I have always scheduled > my flats in the garage) but from what everyone says, it can be (sic) > 'Mr. Toad's Wild Ride'. > > revmaaatin. >
I have had a few rear flats on the road. There really is not too much drama to it. The bike feels loose, the rear end weaves a little, and you realize you have a problem. Back off the gas slowly, stay off the brakes, and decelerate gradually. The tricky part comes as you slow from about 30 to 5 mph or so as the sidewall collapses and the bike really wants to wiggle around. I don't want to say a flat can't put you on the ground, but it has never happened to me. I once had a tire (Continental k111) go flat while I was in a restaurant near Hungry Horse. It was a dark rainy night and i was about 15 miles from my motel. My wife got on my buddy's bike, and I rode my/5 back to the motel where I could have some light, and change the tube indoors. This was on a virtually empty 2-lane, with no traffic and no stop signs. The bike was wiggly getting up to speed and slowing down again, but at about 50, it felt almost normal. The cause of the flat was instructive as well: Thinking myself clever, I had used a strip of duct tape as a rim band, and the edge of the tape fretted through the tube. No more duct tape rim strips for me. I have since ridden shorter distances on flat rears. i would think it would work even better on a stiff tire like a D606 or a Terrorflex. A front flat at speed would probably not be much fun. I have only experienced those at low speeds or off-road. One was a tubeless Gripster on a Lester mag (no bed retention shoulder). There was no apparent reason for the flat, but I was up at Black Horse, on the Stand Rock rez. My advisor had told me to carry some sage or sweet grass in my medicine bag, but I pooh-poohed the whole medicine bag idea, as it's alien to my Welsh cultural traditions. So I think it was just some impish juju from the local pantheities that deflated my tire. I tipped my cap their way, and was able to reinflate the tire with the old hand pump that used to come with every BMW. I usually ride in a tank-top, baggy shorts and flip-flops, but if I think I'm going to have a flat, I wear $800 aerostich gear, a $400 full-face helmet, $250 boots and $17 elkskin gloves. If my riding gear cost more than my bike, I figure I will be afraid to scuff it up and will ride accordingly.

dooden
Posts: 3355
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 3:37 pm

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by dooden » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:40 am

Still gotta add a tube, since the KLR wheels are not air tight with spoke nipples. Dooden A15 Green Ape --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "eddiebmauri" wrote:
> > OK, please bear in mind that this is my 1st KLR, and I am still > learning. I have a question about Tubed vs. Tubeless Tires. > > I read in a book that, (paraphrased) "since the mid 80's, dual
sports
> have been outfitted with tubeless tires. Tubeless tires run cooler > and last longer, also they don't blow out suddenly like a tube
tire.
> But, the biggest feature of a tubeless tire is that the puncture can > in many cases be fixed with a plug (just like a care tire) and this > quick fix method is faster and easier than messing with levers to
pull
> a tire and fix or replace the tube." > > Am I correct so far? If so, then would a tubeless tire be a better > choice for someone who mostly rides on cement? I read that the only > real drawback to the tubeless tire is that they are a bear to remove > and to inflate as they require high and fast air pressure to
inflate.
> > It seems to me that to plug and re-inflate is easier than pulling
the
> tire and fixing or replacing the tube? And, the best feature is
that
> tubeless tires deflate a bid slower than tubed tires when they go
flat.
> > What am I missing? It seems that tubeless tires might be a better > choice for someone who rides mostly if not exclusively on cement? > > Any info would be appreciated. > > Eddie (03' KLR650 - "la poderosa") >

Andrus Chesley
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 2:40 pm

tubed vs. tubeless tires

Post by Andrus Chesley » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:25 am

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Dooden" wrote:
> > Still gotta add a tube, since the KLR wheels are not air tight with > spoke nipples.
Seems like I remember someone using silicone seal in the inside of the wheel and then a strip of duct tape over this and ran tubeless tires with some sucess. I don't remember the outcome to his experiment. Maybe some of the older dudes in here and chime in on this. Andy in Jennings, La.

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