nklr rust removal

[Jeff Saline]

Listers, To give you an idea of what I've ended up with on my 2nd radiator project I just posted 6 pictures in the group photo section. I put them in an album called "2nd Radiator". It's on the first page of the photo section. Let me state up front I don't think everyone "needs" this mod. I don't think your bike will die a horrible death if you don't do this to your bike. But I do think it will help lower coolant temperature in warmer weather when riding slowly. It is not something that can be done by just anyone. I had to use metal working, welding, electrical, mechanical and general shop skills to make this happen. There was lots of looking and head scratching and test fitting to see how I could best make this project work. It was very time consuming. I don't know that I'd do this again, even with the experience and in most cases, bracket templates, I now have. I'd also like to thank Bill Watson for sharing his knowledge, ideas and data with me to make this work the first time. He's been instrumental in successful coolant system work on my KLR650. It all started with the 195 degree stat in the winter of 2005... right after he designed version 1 of the Thermo-Bob. I've been talking about adding a second radiator to my KLR for about 20 months. Last month it finally got high enough on my priority list to happen. I've spent quite a bit of time in the shop since I started the project on 11 Feb. I was also sick for a bit and didn't work on it most weekends. This afternoon I finished it and took it out for 40 smiles. The short version is it works well and the needle moves between about 185 to 200 on the calibrated gauge face. Temp today was just below 60 degrees. It didn't seem to matter if I was going 35 mph or 60 mph. And sitting at a couple of stop lights the needle just sat near 200 degrees. When I got home from the second ride I used the infrared temp sensor on the outside front of both radiators to see if I could get some readings. The gauge was reading 200 degrees when I shut the bike off after idling it for about 45 seconds. Please note these readings are not accurate like those Bill Watson collects. He has some really sweat data collection systems and knows how to use them. Here are my readings in degrees Fahrenheit: Left Right 151 151 Top 146 172 Middle 126 183 Bottom The coolant flows exiting the stat and entering the right radiator bottom. Then flows up and out the top of the right radiator. It's then over to the left radiator top and flows down and exits the left radiator at the bottom and moves to the coolant pump. Looks to me like having two radiators is going to get rid of lots of heat. I'm using the left radiator temperature sensor to control both fans. I figure if I use the right sensor it'll be coming on a lot as it'll be getting coolant right out of the engine onto the sensor. I've wired the fans so both come on at the same time. I checked the draw on each fan and the stock KLR650 fan grabbed 5.0+ amps in a surge and immediately stabilizes at 2.45 amps. The KLR250 fan surges at 2.9 amps and then immediately stabilizes at 1.29 amps. I pulled the relay out of the rubber holder and it's rated at 22 amps. So I'm thinking I shouldn't have any electrical gremlins waiting to fool around. I'm trying Toyota Redline Coolant. This is the first time I've used it and also the first time I've ever paid $22 for a gallon of coolant. Ouch! I'm using it 50/50 right now. I mixed 1,400 ccs for the system and put 400 more in the coolant bottle. The coolant bottle takes 200 ccs to the low mark and another 200 to get it to the full mark. When I was filling the system I had both caps off and poured into the left (stock) radiator. When I could see it at the bottom of the filler neck in the right radiator I installed the cap and then continued to fill the left radiator. After a 4 mile test run I returned to the shop and let it cool for about 15 minutes. Then I added about 30 ccs more to get the 1,400cc total. I'll check the level again tomorrow before I start the engine. I'm thinking it's gonna take quite a bit of heat to get coolant all the way to the coolant bottle in it's new location above the left footpeg. This project required a lot of relocation of electrical components. As you can see from the one picture of some of the brackets, I did a bit of fabrication. I also had to make brackets for the coolant bottle and new solenoid and starter relay location and cover. I made the flasher unit bracket three times before I found a location that would really work. I bought two stock KLR650 CDI brackets and one stock KLR650 coolant bottle bracket so I'd have some pieces to cut up and still have originals on hand if I wanted them. As you can see in picture 43 the CDI is directly above the header pipe and below the right radiator. I think it'll get plenty of cooling there but want to try to monitor it for a bit until I'm comfortable that it won't get too hot. After the ride I was able to put my fingers on it and it was about the same temp as the brackets in that area. I used a stock KLR250 right radiator and fan. Hoses were cut from the stock KLR650 radiator inlet hose. That's the one from the stat to the left radiator upper connection. The coolant bottle is a stock KLR250 bottle. Guess that's it for now. I'm planning on a ride to Sturgis tomorrow to get airhead parts for a couple of bikes. That should give me another good 90 mile test of the system. It's supposed to be 63 degrees tomorrow. I'm looking forward to some cooler weather later in the week or this weekend so I can get a few numbers when riding in the 20s. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Horton Oliphant]

Looks like you did a nice job. Was the one picture, with the cardboard box in the background that said "unit is top heavy and may tip", some kind of visual Freudian slip? Alan Henderson A13 Iowa Jeff Saline wrote:

> Guess that's it for now. I'm planning on a ride to Sturgis tomorrow to > get airhead parts for a couple of bikes. That should give me another > good 90 mile test of the system. It's supposed to be 63 degrees > tomorrow. I'm looking forward to some cooler weather later in the week > or this weekend so I can get a few numbers when riding in the 20s. > > Best, > > Jeff Saline

[Scott Morris]

Jeff (and anyone else), Sounds like you put some thought and skills into this project. I'd like to ask a question, but first, a disclaimer: Last year, I purchased the first motorcycle I have ever owned, my '05 KLR650. I took the safety course, and got the motorcycle license added to my driver's license, etc. In other words, I'm just about as new at this as you can get. So, this question may be totally out of the question. I am wondering if the cooling capacity of water may be of more effect here than additional air cooling capacity. In other words, what if you could design a mister for the existing radiator? It is my understanding that some high-performance vehicles put such measures into place. I'm wondering if it might be somewhat less of a task to implement something like that. Thanks for any insight (and thanks for sharing the experience). Have a good one. Kind Regards, Scott Jeff Saline wrote:

> > > Listers, > > To give you an idea of what I've ended up with on my 2nd radiator project > I just posted 6 pictures in the group photo section. I put them in an > album called "2nd Radiator". It's on the first page of the photo > section. > > Let me state up front I don't think everyone "needs" this mod. I don't > think your bike will die a horrible death if you don't do this to your > bike. But I do think it will help lower coolant temperature in warmer > weather when riding slowly. It is not something that can be done by just > anyone. I had to use metal working, welding, electrical, mechanical and > general shop skills to make this happen. There was lots of looking and > head scratching and test fitting to see how I could best make this > project work. It was very time consuming. I don't know that I'd do this > again, even with the experience and in most cases, bracket templates, I > now have. > > I'd also like to thank Bill Watson for sharing his knowledge, ideas and > data with me to make this work the first time. He's been instrumental in > successful coolant system work on my KLR650. It all started with the 195 > degree stat in the winter of 2005... right after he designed version 1 > of the Thermo-Bob. > > I've been talking about adding a second radiator to my KLR for about 20 > months. Last month it finally got high enough on my priority list to > happen. I've spent quite a bit of time in the shop since I started the > project on 11 Feb. I was also sick for a bit and didn't work on it most > weekends. This afternoon I finished it and took it out for 40 smiles. > > The short version is it works well and the needle moves between about 185 > to 200 on the calibrated gauge face. Temp today was just below 60 > degrees. It didn't seem to matter if I was going 35 mph or 60 mph. And > sitting at a couple of stop lights the needle just sat near 200 degrees. > > When I got home from the second ride I used the infrared temp sensor on > the outside front of both radiators to see if I could get some readings. > The gauge was reading 200 degrees when I shut the bike off after idling > it for about 45 seconds. Please note these readings are not accurate > like those Bill Watson collects. He has some really sweat data > collection systems and knows how to use them. Here are my readings in > degrees Fahrenheit: > > Left Right > 151 151 Top > 146 172 Middle > 126 183 Bottom > > The coolant flows exiting the stat and entering the right radiator > bottom. Then flows up and out the top of the right radiator. It's then > over to the left radiator top and flows down and exits the left radiator > at the bottom and moves to the coolant pump. > > Looks to me like having two radiators is going to get rid of lots of > heat. > > I'm using the left radiator temperature sensor to control both fans. I > figure if I use the right sensor it'll be coming on a lot as it'll be > getting coolant right out of the engine onto the sensor. I've wired the > fans so both come on at the same time. I checked the draw on each fan > and the stock KLR650 fan grabbed 5.0+ amps in a surge and immediately > stabilizes at 2.45 amps. The KLR250 fan surges at 2.9 amps and then > immediately stabilizes at 1.29 amps. I pulled the relay out of the > rubber holder and it's rated at 22 amps. So I'm thinking I shouldn't > have any electrical gremlins waiting to fool around. > > I'm trying Toyota Redline Coolant. This is the first time I've used it > and also the first time I've ever paid $22 for a gallon of coolant. > Ouch! I'm using it 50/50 right now. I mixed 1,400 ccs for the system > and put 400 more in the coolant bottle. The coolant bottle takes 200 ccs > to the low mark and another 200 to get it to the full mark. When I was > filling the system I had both caps off and poured into the left (stock) > radiator. When I could see it at the bottom of the filler neck in the > right radiator I installed the cap and then continued to fill the left > radiator. After a 4 mile test run I returned to the shop and let it cool > for about 15 minutes. Then I added about 30 ccs more to get the 1,400cc > total. I'll check the level again tomorrow before I start the engine. > I'm thinking it's gonna take quite a bit of heat to get coolant all the > way to the coolant bottle in it's new location above the left footpeg. > > This project required a lot of relocation of electrical components. As > you can see from the one picture of some of the brackets, I did a bit of > fabrication. I also had to make brackets for the coolant bottle and new > solenoid and starter relay location and cover. I made the flasher unit > bracket three times before I found a location that would really work. I > bought two stock KLR650 CDI brackets and one stock KLR650 coolant bottle > bracket so I'd have some pieces to cut up and still have originals on > hand if I wanted them. > > As you can see in picture 43 the CDI is directly above the header pipe > and below the right radiator. I think it'll get plenty of cooling there > but want to try to monitor it for a bit until I'm comfortable that it > won't get too hot. After the ride I was able to put my fingers on it and > it was about the same temp as the brackets in that area. > > I used a stock KLR250 right radiator and fan. Hoses were cut from the > stock KLR650 radiator inlet hose. That's the one from the stat to the > left radiator upper connection. The coolant bottle is a stock KLR250 > bottle. > > Guess that's it for now. I'm planning on a ride to Sturgis tomorrow to > get airhead parts for a couple of bikes. That should give me another > good 90 mile test of the system. It's supposed to be 63 degrees > tomorrow. I'm looking forward to some cooler weather later in the week > or this weekend so I can get a few numbers when riding in the 20s. > > Best, > > Jeff Saline > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[stevedyer@cox.net]

Scott, I really like your out-of-the-box thinking, but....Oh HELL NO! If this idea gets legs then all we'd hear about for months is the necessary IMS 7-gallon mist tank, the upgraded (relay-wired and independently fused) mist pump, the pump electrical lockout-bypass-cutoff mod, and the best lighweight -backup- mist pump (internal? external?). Then we'd get into variable aperture mist nozzles for high and low altitudes and their optimum placement and orientation. About this time someone would spend all day making a video on how to change the mister pump trail-side and offer their opinion on the merits of various anti-freeze concentrations for the mist tank. A list argument would erupt concerning the best way to integrate the OEM thermostat to toggle the mister on and off vs. calibrating a separate manual or automatic mister control. Must we really brace ourselves for this? Steve A13 ---- Scott Morris wrote: Jeff (and anyone else), I am wondering if the cooling capacity of water may be of more effect here than additional air cooling capacity. In other words, what if you could design a mister for the existing radiator? It is my understanding that some high-performance vehicles put such measures into place. I'm wondering if it might be somewhat less of a task to implement something like that.

[sd_ware]

That's pretty neat Jeff! I wonder though that with so much extra cooling area if the second fan is even necessary. I'm thinking that with just the single stock fan and the second radiator, that there should be sufficient cooling for even a nice July trail riding session in DeathValley? Doug

[Jeff Saline]

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:42:36 -0400 writes:

> > Scott, > > I really like your out-of-the-box thinking, but....Oh HELL NO! > If this idea gets legs then all we'd hear about for months is the > necessary IMS 7-gallon mist tank, the upgraded (relay-wired and > independently fused) mist pump, the pump electrical > lockout-bypass-cutoff mod, and the best lighweight -backup- mist > pump (internal? external?). Then we'd get into variable aperture > mist nozzles for high and low altitudes and their optimum placement > and orientation. About this time someone would spend all day > making a video on how to change the mister pump trail-side and offer > their opinion on the merits of various anti-freeze concentrations > for the mist tank. A list argument would erupt concerning the best > way to integrate the OEM thermostat to toggle the mister on and off > vs. calibrating a separate manual or automatic mister control. > > Must we really brace ourselves for this? > > Steve > A13

<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Steve, I just got home from 100 miles of test ride. Your comments above really made my day. Thanks for the laugh. Oh, I think you forgot pulse-mist modulation for mist conservation. : ) Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Jeff Saline]

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:57:12 -0000 "sd_ware" writes:

> That's pretty neat Jeff! > > I wonder though that with so much extra cooling area if the second > fan > is even necessary. I'm thinking that with just the single stock fan > > and the second radiator, that there should be sufficient cooling for > > even a nice July trail riding session in DeathValley? > > Doug

<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Doug, Thanks for the comment and question. I had originally thought I'd use the 2nd fan. Then when I first started the project the available space was pretty limited so I thought about eliminating the 2nd fan. Bill Watson called me and we talked briefly about this issue along with a few others. At slow speeds having the extra fan should really make a difference in keeping the coolant temperature down. I decided to make it fit and it does with about 3/8"-1/2" clearance from the front of the fuel tank. I think it was a good call to keep it. At the end of my test ride today I let the bike idle while I tried to get some more temp readings off the radiators. It was about 67 degrees at the shop and after a few minutes of idling the gauge temp went up to about 220. About that time the engine died as I had turned the fuel off about 1/4 mile from the driveway. When the engine died the fans came on. I then started the engine again and let it idle to see what would happen. It didn't take very long, maybe a minute but I didn't time it (didn't think about it until after the fact) that the temp was back to 200 degrees and the fans were off. I think I'm gonna really like the 2nd fan. A July ride in Death Valley sounds pretty good right about now. I used my heated grips at the higher elevations but when I returned to town the temp was comfortable. No surprises with the coolant system performance today. It was similar to yesterday with the fluctuating needle. As I approached home with the temps near 70 the needle steadied and remained right at 195-200 on the gauge. That tells me the coolant in the radiators was finally heating up enough to allow the stat to remain open a bit longer. I'm really interested in seeing how it performs when the temps get into the 90s or low 100s. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Jeff Saline]

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:44:57 -0600 Scott Morris writes:

> Jeff (and anyone else), > > Sounds like you put some thought and skills into this project. I'd > like > to ask a question, but first, a disclaimer:

SNIP

> I am wondering if the cooling capacity of water may be of more > effect > here than additional air cooling capacity. In other words, what if > you > could design a mister for the existing radiator? It is my > understanding > that some high-performance vehicles put such measures into place. > I'm > wondering if it might be somewhat less of a task to implement > something > like that. > > Thanks for any insight (and thanks for sharing the experience). > Have a > good one. > > Kind Regards, > > Scott

<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Scott, Thanks for the comments and question. I hadn't heard of the mister on high performance vehicles. I thought about it a bit today while taking another test ride. I suppose a water mist would remove more heat faster than just air. Mist cooling is used in some machining applications as an effective coolant. It's also pretty effective on the human body. I don't think it would be feasible in the KLR application for a couple of reasons. It would take a bit of work to figure out the amount of mist, triggering mechanism, plumbing system and would also require you to carry the liquid mist and keep it filled. I had loads of issues trying to figure out how/where to put displaced electrical components after installing the 2nd radiator. I suppose a guy would have a similar issue with a mist system, either where to put the system or where to put the components the system displaces. I've ridden in some places where I didn't have a place to get fuel, water, food, anything for over 24 hours. So needing to refill the mist would/could get tough for some of my riding. I also see an issue with spraying the mist while in dusty conditions. I'd think that might cause more problems than it would solve. Just a couple of quick thoughts about your question. Thanks for bringing it up. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Jeff Saline]

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:26:52 -0500 Horton Oliphant writes:

> Looks like you did a nice job. Was the one picture, with the > cardboard > box in the background that said "unit is top heavy and may tip", > some > kind of visual Freudian slip? > > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

<><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><> Al, I noticed that last night when downloading the pictures. That might be true of my KLR. But hopefully not when I'm on it. : ) Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Saline wrote:

> > Listers, > > To give you an idea of what I've ended up with on my 2nd radiator

project

> I just posted 6 pictures in the group photo section. I put them in an > album called "2nd Radiator". It's on the first page of the photo > section. > >Wowser. WOwser. WOWSer. WOWSER.

revmaaatin.