wheel help!

[John Biccum]

How do you play defensive driver at a light? I am going to pretend that was not intended as a rhetorical question. You leave room in front of you to maneuver around any cars in front of you. You look almost constantly in the rear view mirrors, you stay in gear at the light and you ensure that you are ready to run the light (or turn right, or hop the curb, or dart beside to the car in front of you) to avoid being run over. In a word: vigilance. _____ From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Criswell Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 19:09 To: Eric J Foster Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Be careful watch out for the other guy Well .... I was at a total stop when a drunk driver hit me from the rear so how do you play defensive driver with that? His headlight ran right into my seat and flattened the rim to the axle. Me ... I went sailing merrily through the air landing on my helmet (they work). Sitting up close to the gas tank is a good thing in this situation. And laying there ... on the ground ........... I watched him drive off. A witness caught up with him and ran him into a light pole (justice). He was more concerned about who dinged his truck than me. He spent 3 days in jail and a $350 fine. This was in 1973. He probably did it again. I walked away with a dinged helmet and a dinged bike. I wonder if my shoulder pain and arm pain today was caused by this moron. Be careful when you sign a release. I try not to ride at 11:30 PM anymore. Criswell

On Aug 30, 2007, at 7:32 PM, Eric J Foster wrote: > If 80 was a "prudent" speed, then stopping before hitting the drunk > driver wouldn't have been a problem. It's too bad that more people > don't > understand the rules of defensive driving. > > By definition, DD is "Driving in such a manner as to prevent an > accident > (no such thing, but the word serves a purpose here) due to the > improper > actions of others or inclement weather". This is not a matter of who's > right and who's wrong, it's a matter of coming home alive. I rather > like > doing that, and so do my wife and kid. Blaming the drunk for > pulling out > in front of me while my lifeblood is spilling onto the hot pavement is > absolutely useless by the time it gets to this point. > > I teach DD to professional drivers and it is often a challenge to get > them to think this way, to quit passing blame and simply take the > responsibility of being one step above the other guy. You will > NEVER fix > all of the erratic drivers, drunks, cell phone users, far too elderly > license holders, etc. But, you can VERY simply equip yourself with the > tools necessary to finish the ride without 3/4 of the bones in your > body > being turned into bonemeal. > > Rule number one is to look at every other vehicle on the road as a > sniper for the opposing force. They will KILL you at first chance. > Ride > accordingly. > > Thinkahbowtit! > > E > > -- > Guns kill people like silverware made Rosie O'Donnell fat. > > http://map.findu http://map.findu.com/ke1lb-14> com/ke1lb-14 Good Stuff, Trucks Bring It!! > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Michael Nelson]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 09:19:39PM -0700, John Biccum wrote:

> How do you play defensive driver at a light? I am going to pretend that was > not intended as a rhetorical question. > > You leave room in front of you to maneuver around any cars in front of you. > You look almost constantly in the rear view mirrors, you stay in gear at the > light and you ensure that you are ready to run the light (or turn right, or > hop the curb, or dart beside to the car in front of you) to avoid being run > over.

In California, splitting to the front of the line and stopping between two cars instead of having one in front of you and one behind you can help prevent becoming the meat in a car/motorcycle/car sandwich. I guess it's not legal in other states, but I have done it for years here in California since being rearended and having my new 1974 Honda CB750 punted out from under me and through the intersection by a Ford Galaxy. -- "Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID he just whipped out a quarter?" --Steven Wright San Francisco, CA

[gmay131313]

I totally agree John, approaching an intersection, especially one with multi lanes an stop lights where there is going to be traffic flow from a lot of different, I decide as I go into the lane I need to be exactly where in that lane I want to be to allow me the most freedom of escape and definitely the bike stays in gear with one eye in the mirror. How fast we drive, how we deal with road conditions, how we deal with weather conditions and how we deal with traffic conditions etc. around us are all things that for our part have control of, dealing with those intelligently is my idea of defensive driving. While we can't control the actions of others we can definitely do things to limit their effect on us beyond what I consider DD, there is a street in the town I live close to that is covered with malls, stores and fast food places, on a bike I avoide it like the plague, I have a friend that lives in NYC who I visit several times a year and I would no more ride a bike there than I would in a Nova Scotia snow storm where I live, my decision. Many would say that I'm allowing my freedom to be limited by the actions of others, but in my opinion I;m using my brain to make an intelligent decision for my own safety by not taking an unneeded risk to allow me to do the things I enjoy doing in the future. If I have to go to the above mentioned street I use 4 wheels and enjoy the a/c, the tunes and the 4000lbs of suv around me and I still drive on that street with the same level of caution as if I was on my bike. I'm pretty much positive that a broken arm would hurt just as much whether it's my fault, someone elses, on a bike or on 4 wheels. My choice to ride a bike like my job has the potential to seriously injure or kill with one mistake and I approach both the same way, with intelligence and respect but with no fear, if I ever became afraid while doing either i think it would be time to move on to something different....Have a great long weekend all.....Greg --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "John Biccum" wrote:

> > How do you play defensive driver at a light? I am going to pretend

that was

> not intended as a rhetorical question. > > You leave room in front of you to maneuver around any cars in front

of you.

> You look almost constantly in the rear view mirrors, you stay in

gear at the

> light and you ensure that you are ready to run the light (or turn

right, or

> hop the curb, or dart beside to the car in front of you) to avoid

being run

> over. > > In a word: vigilance. > > _____ > > From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com

[mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On

> Behalf Of Ronald Criswell > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 19:09 > To: Eric J Foster > Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Be careful watch out for the

other guy

> > > > Well .... I was at a total stop when a drunk driver hit me from the > rear so how do you play defensive driver with that? His headlight

ran

> right into my seat and flattened the rim to the axle. Me ... I went > sailing merrily through the air landing on my helmet (they work). > Sitting up close to the gas tank is a good thing in this situation. > And laying there ... on the ground ........... I watched him drive > off. A witness caught up with him and ran him into a light pole > (justice). He was more concerned about who dinged his truck than

me.

> He spent 3 days in jail and a $350 fine. This was in 1973. He > probably did it again. I walked away with a dinged helmet and a > dinged bike. I wonder if my shoulder pain and arm pain today was > caused by this moron. Be careful when you sign a release. I try not > to ride at 11:30 PM anymore. > > Criswell > On Aug 30, 2007, at 7:32 PM, Eric J Foster wrote: > > > If 80 was a "prudent" speed, then stopping before hitting the

drunk

> > driver wouldn't have been a problem. It's too bad that more

people

> > don't > > understand the rules of defensive driving. > > > > By definition, DD is "Driving in such a manner as to prevent an > > accident > > (no such thing, but the word serves a purpose here) due to the > > improper > > actions of others or inclement weather". This is not a matter of

who's

> > right and who's wrong, it's a matter of coming home alive. I

rather

> > like > > doing that, and so do my wife and kid. Blaming the drunk for > > pulling out > > in front of me while my lifeblood is spilling onto the hot

pavement is

> > absolutely useless by the time it gets to this point. > > > > I teach DD to professional drivers and it is often a challenge to

get

> > them to think this way, to quit passing blame and simply take the > > responsibility of being one step above the other guy. You will > > NEVER fix > > all of the erratic drivers, drunks, cell phone users, far too

elderly

> > license holders, etc. But, you can VERY simply equip yourself

with the

> > tools necessary to finish the ride without 3/4 of the bones in

your

> > body > > being turned into bonemeal. > > > > Rule number one is to look at every other vehicle on the road as a > > sniper for the opposing force. They will KILL you at first

chance.

> > Ride > > accordingly. > > > > Thinkahbowtit! > > > > E > > > > -- > > Guns kill people like silverware made Rosie O'Donnell fat. > > > > http://map.findu http://map.findu.com/ke1lb-14> com/ke1lb-14

Good Stuff,

> Trucks Bring It!! > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

[Ronald Criswell]

The point was defensive riding tactics would have done no good in my situation (other than staying home from say 7 PM to 5 AM). The guy was so drunk he kept falling down when apprehended. Criswell

On Aug 30, 2007, at 10:54 PM, Eric J Foster wrote: > Getting hit from behind while legally stopped is a far cry from making > excuses for doing 80 in a populated area.............. This is like > justifying not wearing a seatbelt because you have a friend of a > friend > of a friend who had a friend whose 3rd cousins' step mother was killed > because she was wearing a seatbelt. > > Sorry to bind this up gents, I was merely trying to help. > > E > > Ronald Criswell wrote: > > Well .... I was at a total stop when a drunk driver hit me from the > > rear so how do you play defensive driver with that? His headlight > ran > > right into my seat and flattened the rim to the axle. Me ... I went > > sailing merrily through the air landing on my helmet (they work). > > Sitting up close to the gas tank is a good thing in this situation. > > And laying there ... on the ground ........... I watched him drive > > off. A witness caught up with him and ran him into a light pole > > (justice). He was more concerned about who dinged his truck than me. > > He spent 3 days in jail and a $350 fine. This was in 1973. He > probably > > did it again. I walked away with a dinged helmet and a dinged > bike. I > > wonder if my shoulder pain and arm pain today was caused by this > > moron. Be careful when you sign a release. I try not to ride at > 11:30 > > PM anymore. > > -- > Guns kill people like silverware made Rosie O'Donnell fat. > > http://map.findu.com/ke1lb-14 Good Stuff, Trucks Bring It!! > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ronald Criswell]

Well yeah ..... maybe. It was at a light and the last thing I remember before getting up off the ground was seeing the bright headlight about 5 feet away in my mirror. Not enough time to react. Everything with bike safety is a close call. I have almost been run over stopping when the light is turning red by the moron behind me running the light. But I do watch out to my rear a lot more after my rear end collision (and sideways ... and front ways - I need 3 pairs of eyes). Criswell

On Aug 30, 2007, at 11:19 PM, John Biccum wrote: > How do you play defensive driver at a light? I am going to pretend > that was not intended as a rhetorical question. > > You leave room in front of you to maneuver around any cars in front > of you. You look almost constantly in the rear view mirrors, you > stay in gear at the light and you ensure that you are ready to run > the light (or turn right, or hop the curb, or dart beside to the > car in front of you) to avoid being run over. > > In a word: vigilance. > > From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ronald Criswell > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 19:09 > To: Eric J Foster > Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Be careful watch out for the > other guy > > Well .... I was at a total stop when a drunk driver hit me from the > rear so how do you play defensive driver with that? His headlight ran > right into my seat and flattened the rim to the axle. Me ... I went > sailing merrily through the air landing on my helmet (they work). > Sitting up close to the gas tank is a good thing in this situation. > And laying there ... on the ground ........... I watched him drive > off. A witness caught up with him and ran him into a light pole > (justice). He was more concerned about who dinged his truck than me. > He spent 3 days in jail and a $350 fine. This was in 1973. He > probably did it again. I walked away with a dinged helmet and a > dinged bike. I wonder if my shoulder pain and arm pain today was > caused by this moron. Be careful when you sign a release. I try not > to ride at 11:30 PM anymore. > > Criswell > On Aug 30, 2007, at 7:32 PM, Eric J Foster wrote: > > > If 80 was a "prudent" speed, then stopping before hitting the drunk > > driver wouldn't have been a problem. It's too bad that more people > > don't > > understand the rules of defensive driving. > > > > By definition, DD is "Driving in such a manner as to prevent an > > accident > > (no such thing, but the word serves a purpose here) due to the > > improper > > actions of others or inclement weather". This is not a matter of > who's > > right and who's wrong, it's a matter of coming home alive. I rather > > like > > doing that, and so do my wife and kid. Blaming the drunk for > > pulling out > > in front of me while my lifeblood is spilling onto the hot > pavement is > > absolutely useless by the time it gets to this point. > > > > I teach DD to professional drivers and it is often a challenge to > get > > them to think this way, to quit passing blame and simply take the > > responsibility of being one step above the other guy. You will > > NEVER fix > > all of the erratic drivers, drunks, cell phone users, far too > elderly > > license holders, etc. But, you can VERY simply equip yourself > with the > > tools necessary to finish the ride without 3/4 of the bones in your > > body > > being turned into bonemeal. > > > > Rule number one is to look at every other vehicle on the road as a > > sniper for the opposing force. They will KILL you at first chance. > > Ride > > accordingly. > > > > Thinkahbowtit! > > > > E > > > > -- > > Guns kill people like silverware made Rosie O'Donnell fat. > > > > http://map.findu.com/ke1lb-14 Good Stuff, Trucks Bring It!! > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ronald Criswell]

Not legal in Texas where it happened .... but I did not have any one in front of me. Being more vigilant and aware would have been good, but was coming home from work (at 11:00 PM) and probably not as sharp as I should have been. Criswell

On Aug 30, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Michael Nelson wrote: > On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 09:19:39PM -0700, John Biccum wrote: > > How do you play defensive driver at a light? I am going to > pretend that was > > not intended as a rhetorical question. > > > > You leave room in front of you to maneuver around any cars in > front of you. > > You look almost constantly in the rear view mirrors, you stay in > gear at the > > light and you ensure that you are ready to run the light (or turn > right, or > > hop the curb, or dart beside to the car in front of you) to avoid > being run > > over. > > In California, splitting to the front of the line and stopping > between two > cars instead of having one in front of you and one behind you can help > prevent becoming the meat in a car/motorcycle/car sandwich. I guess > it's > not legal in other states, but I have done it for years here in > California > since being rearended and having my new 1974 Honda CB750 punted out > from > under me and through the intersection by a Ford Galaxy. > > -- > "Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID he just > whipped > out a quarter?" --Steven Wright > > San Francisco, CA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

Right on, my friend, if you are on a motorcycle, you should regards cars as you would bull elephants and wild buffalos. I have posted this before, but many poke fun at me. I have done stupid things in the past, but I have learned, and DD is now always on my menu. We will never eradicate stupidity, distraction, substance-use etc. Always assume the other guy could cut in in front of you. Many times I have ridden through a herd of cattle without problem, ha ha, but don t trust humans. Jake ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

[Jacobus De Bruyn]

I think the problem may be that many drive their bikes as they would drive their cars. Wrong, as you said, it takes much more precaution, and you must be willing to do things differently, and think always abt. an escape possibility, what if.... What if two tractor trailers come at you side by side on a two lane road? Get off the road into the grass. Slow down in time. Many drivers see bikes as a nuisance only, they think: get out of my way, you idiot! It is better to fall in the grass and break your wrist than riding head on into a tractor trailer. Those things I ponder while riding, and sometimes I pull up next to a moron, and tell him what I think, through the open window. But in the US you may get shot at if you do. Jake. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

[Arden Kysely]

Riders are oftent to blame for crashes, but why do you indict the motorcycle industry? __Arden

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Craig Kahler wrote: > > The motorcycle industry and motorcycle users are also to blame. Most people killed or seriously injured in motorcycle wrecks, would have walked away if they were driving cars. The motorcycle rider is knowingly taking more risk than the car driver. > I own and enjoy riding motorcycles, I accept the risk. It's the price of freedom. It bothers me when we try to place all the blame on others. ie drunk drivers. > CraigKahler > c cooper wrote: > All it takes is an instants distraction, daydreaming about whatever, > regardless of speed. I've done that without drinking, being tired from > working a long day, or arguing with the wife, It happens. Every time I get > on the bike I know there is a possibility of high speed steel/aluminum > poisoning. I'm not passive or karmic about it. All precautions taken, riding > a motorcycle may be hazardous to your health. > > On the other hand, things would change if "they" made two changes. (1) Make > examples of drunk drivers by meting out severe penalties. If you're drunk, > it's not an accident, it's not manslaughter, it's not 2nd degree murder, > it's deliberated behavior. **AND - most importantly** (2) Assess liquor > companies for ALL liquor related damages. This includes not only direct > property damage and medical costs, but also ancillary costs such as lost > incomes, child and spousal support, and alcoholic rehabilitation programs, > instead of externalizing direct costs to insurance companies (which means we > all pay), and ignoring the other costs altogether. > > Build ALL the costs into the price of a bottle of Jose Cuervo. All we have > to deal with then is the bootleggers. > > Same thing for tobacco companies. Irks me no end that tobacco companies are > allowed to externalize to society at large everything but the direct costs > of production... I'll shut up now... > > Chuck > > On 8/30/07, Michael Nelson wrote: > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 12:58:02PM -0700, Stuart Mumford wrote: > > > > > I have ridden it dozens of times, most recently last week. A modern, > > well > > > sorted sportbike at 80 is totally prudent for that stretch of road. > > > > Obviously not. Not if you can't stop in time when an emergency situation > > arises, and this rider clearly was outriding his abilities. Sorry he died, > > but if he wasn't going 80, he might be alive. > > > > How many people practice emergency braking from the speeds they think are > > "prudent"? That's right, almost nobody. Not even me, although I *have* > > done hard braking practice up to about 50MPH, and it's scary even at 50 > > without ABS. > > > > Michael > > > > -- > > "Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID he just > > whipped > > out a quarter?" --Steven Wright > > > > San Francisco, CA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

[Ronald Criswell]

Hmmmm .... that's interesting, blame for the industry. I have had a problem for a while with a company that seemingly encourages stupid riding. Hoggly Davidson. Every rider is responsible for how they ride and what they wear and what they drink, smoke, inhale etc. But a company that seems to encourage riding sans full-face helmets in favor of designer doo rags, beanie helmets and Nazi replicas and or wearing leather in all the wrong places. And bar hopping or bike meet party hopping (which seems to attract a lot of inexperienced riders riding big heavy, clumsy machines). I don't mind the bikes as they still seem to be the best platform for customizing if you are into that. Just always had a problem with the company seemingly endorsing stupid riding habits. But then again, do we really need bikes with 150 horsepower on the street capable of 170, 180, 190 mph? They would be fun to ride but ... where? I don't like the idea of being locked up in jail for doing 180 or sliding down the street at 180. I have tried it at 60 and didn't much care for it. But every rider makes their own decisions but what they do affects all riders with insurance costs and legislation. Criswell

On Aug 31, 2007, at 10:57 AM, Arden Kysely wrote: > Riders are oftent to blame for crashes, but why do you indict the > motorcycle industry? > > __Arden > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Craig Kahler wrote: > > > > The motorcycle industry and motorcycle users are also to blame. > Most people killed or seriously injured in motorcycle wrecks, would > have walked away if they were driving cars. The motorcycle rider is > knowingly taking more risk than the car driver. > > I own and enjoy riding motorcycles, I accept the risk. It's the > price of freedom. It bothers me when we try to place all the blame on > others. ie drunk drivers. > > CraigKahler > > c cooper wrote: > > All it takes is an instants distraction, daydreaming > about whatever, > > regardless of speed. I've done that without drinking, being tired > from > > working a long day, or arguing with the wife, It happens. Every > time I get > > on the bike I know there is a possibility of high speed > steel/aluminum > > poisoning. I'm not passive or karmic about it. All precautions > taken, riding > > a motorcycle may be hazardous to your health. > > > > On the other hand, things would change if "they" made two changes. > (1) Make > > examples of drunk drivers by meting out severe penalties. If you're > drunk, > > it's not an accident, it's not manslaughter, it's not 2nd degree > murder, > > it's deliberated behavior. **AND - most importantly** (2) Assess > liquor > > companies for ALL liquor related damages. This includes not only > direct > > property damage and medical costs, but also ancillary costs such as > lost > > incomes, child and spousal support, and alcoholic rehabilitation > programs, > > instead of externalizing direct costs to insurance companies (which > means we > > all pay), and ignoring the other costs altogether. > > > > Build ALL the costs into the price of a bottle of Jose Cuervo. All > we have > > to deal with then is the bootleggers. > > > > Same thing for tobacco companies. Irks me no end that tobacco > companies are > > allowed to externalize to society at large everything but the > direct costs > > of production... I'll shut up now... > > > > Chuck > > > > On 8/30/07, Michael Nelson wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 12:58:02PM -0700, Stuart Mumford wrote: > > > > > > > I have ridden it dozens of times, most recently last week. A > modern, > > > well > > > > sorted sportbike at 80 is totally prudent for that stretch of > road. > > > > > > Obviously not. Not if you can't stop in time when an emergency > situation > > > arises, and this rider clearly was outriding his abilities. Sorry > he died, > > > but if he wasn't going 80, he might be alive. > > > > > > How many people practice emergency braking from the speeds they > think are > > > "prudent"? That's right, almost nobody. Not even me, although I > *have* > > > done hard braking practice up to about 50MPH, and it's scary even > at 50 > > > without ABS. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > -- > > > "Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID he > just > > > whipped > > > out a quarter?" --Steven Wright > > > > > > San Francisco, CA > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with > Yahoo! FareChase. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]