question re side cases - luggage

[Don Pendergraft]

Some say oil preference is like a religion to motorheads. No. It's more serious than that. I'm not qualified to comment on the merits such esoteric issues. However, I can say that this type of discussion is what I enjoy about the list. Facinating stuff. Keep it up gents! Don+ _____ From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 12:04 PM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re:oil question --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com, "E.L. Green" wrote:

> > Regardless, 6 to 10 psi is the KLR oil pressure spec. Never heard of

anybody who

> measured oil pressure of a KLR who got anything but that under

normal operation. Tends

> to freak people out, but (shrug). If you want super-long life, go

buy a Honda Civic. High

> oil pressure indicates that the oil isn't flowing efficiently, which

isn't what you want. I

> think Patman measured the oil filter bypass pressure once and it

wasn't very high either.

> Of course, too-low oil pressure isn't good either, because it won't

push the oil up into the

> cylinder head, it'll all be running out of lower ports. But 6 to 10

psi isn't too-low, it's KLR

> spec. > > As for the notion of running 20W50 (or any other XW50) in the KLR,

it is completely not

> needed and counter productive. Running thick oils in motorcycles is

a practice that dates

> back to early air-cooled Japanese and British bikes which might as

well have been called

> "wish-cooled" because they just didn't understand cooling systems

back then. The oil got

> well above the boiling point of water in those bikes and fell out of

spec below the viscosity

> where the oil pump could maintain reasonable oil pressure. Starting

out with a thicker oil

> helped stave off that process. But we have a water-cooled bike, and

if you maintain your

> cooling system properly, the oil barely exceeds the boiling point of

water if I'm recalling

> Patman's oil temperature measurements correctly. Oils don't fall out

of spec under those

> conditions. I personally prefer running a diesel-type oil because

the tables I've seen show

> that it has EP performance similar to 20W50 oils but is not too

thick for the KLR's primitive

> oil pump to effectively pump, and the additive package is far

superior to automotive oils.

> I'm running Shell Rotella T 5w40 because it's cheap and available at

my local Wally World, I

> wouldn't hesitate to recommend any other diesel oil in the KLR. >

Eric, Because it's what happens in the KLR doesn't always mean it's the best - any chance you might agree with that as a general statement? The pressure will be low, due to the design of the system. The r/h exhaust bearing often shows scuffing. This bearing is at the end of the system, and the pressure reading is not taken there........... I agree with you on the use of diesel oils. A few of them I've looked at and used have worked well. General notes: This summer I'm running 20-50 full synthetic syntec. The bike is shifting well. No ugly noises at any time, including startup. When I get to 2K miles It'll be analyzed. The clatter heard on startup would probably be cam on valve shim, as if you hear clatter in the cam bearings you have big problems. The KACR can also make noise. A "premium" motorcycle specific oil recently wore cam lobes in just 2000 miles. This oil shared down 25% in this test. There's been very good results from the 5-50 syntech so far, going by lack of wear on the cam lobes, etc. all the best, Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Watson]

Eagle Mike wrote: (because of what Norm Keller wrote)

>>Also, you mentioned the cam bearings. These are plain bearings. These

typically require more pressure to maintain the lubricating film between the rotating part and the stationary part. Are you sure 6 to 10 psi is really adequate for this type of bearing? I personally wouldn't be happy with this. Other engines with plain bearings require much higher pressures. --------------------------------------- After some oil pressure measurements I took on my bike a few years ago when it was 'new', I did leave this area with a desire to run a slightly larger oil pump than factory (much easier said than done, but have done it before). Factory spec in the oil galley in the right case at 4000 rpm with hot oil is 11-21 psi. Mine was in that range, but the oil pressure has to be even lower at the cam bearings because oil must work through the case to the filter to the external oil line, up to the head (and the banjo fitting orifice) into the left cam bearings, then across the bridge to the right cam bearings! At idle with the bike fully warmed up, I remember seeing 5-8 psi of oil pressure on a 'normal' KLR in the oil galley in the right case. It is low, but we do seem to have a lot of high-mileage engines out there. But it does seem that if anything dies in the lubrication system, it's the right side exhaust cam bearing. For that reason, it does seem that a little more pressure from a higher flowrate (as opposed to more pressure from a thicker oil actually decreasing flowrate) would be a nice thing. But I haven't seen anyone address this with an aftermarket pump, a larger banjo fitting restriction, or a secondary external oil line to the top end. Have you seen/heard of these either? My opinion so far: It would seem the lack of these items in the aftermarket must means we're OK as is, so I haven't done anything about them, just riding the bike. Bill Watson Phoenix, AZ --------------------------------- Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Bill Watson wrote:

> > Eagle Mike wrote: (because of what Norm Keller wrote) > > >>Also, you mentioned the cam bearings. These are plain bearings.

These

> typically require more pressure to maintain the lubricating film > between the rotating part and the stationary part. Are you sure 6 to > 10 psi is really adequate for this type of bearing? I personally > wouldn't be happy with this. Other engines with plain bearings require > much higher pressures. > --------------------------------------- > > After some oil pressure measurements I took on my bike a few years

ago when it was 'new', I did leave this area with a desire to run a slightly larger oil pump than factory (much easier said than done, but have done it before). Factory spec in the oil galley in the right case at 4000 rpm with hot oil is 11-21 psi. Mine was in that range, but the oil pressure has to be even lower at the cam bearings because oil must work through the case to the filter to the external oil line, up to the head (and the banjo fitting orifice) into the left cam bearings, then across the bridge to the right cam bearings!

> > At idle with the bike fully warmed up, I remember seeing 5-8 psi

of oil pressure on a 'normal' KLR in the oil galley in the right case.

> > It is low, but we do seem to have a lot of high-mileage engines

out there.

> But it does seem that if anything dies in the lubrication system,

it's the right side exhaust cam bearing. For that reason, it does seem that a little more pressure from a higher flowrate (as opposed to more pressure from a thicker oil actually decreasing flowrate) would be a nice thing. But I haven't seen anyone address this with an aftermarket pump, a larger banjo fitting restriction, or a secondary external oil line to the top end. Have you seen/heard of these either?

> > My opinion so far: It would seem the lack of these items in the

aftermarket must means we're OK as is, so I haven't done anything about them, just riding the bike.

> > Bill Watson > Phoenix, AZ >

Bill, After I made the above post I thought it might be easy to read it the way I think you did. What I meant was - the oil pressure and volume in the system are barely adequate - based on what I've seen in the r/h exhaust cam bearing. I'm also concerned about cam wear, etc, as this puts deposits in the oil - which will also accelerate wear. As some say, the best oil is the freshly changed stuff in your engine. I'm going to use at least a 15-40, or a 20-50 in the summer. The previously cited older engines are constructed the same as the KLR650. Roller and ball bearing bottom end, plain bearing cam journals. The KLR650 is water cooled. I'm not going just by oil breakdown due to temp's, but also conditions in the crankcase. YMMV, of course. all the best, Mike

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote:

> --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "E.L. Green" wrote: > > Regardless, 6 to 10 psi is the KLR oil pressure spec. Never heard of > anybody who > > measured oil pressure of a KLR who got anything but that under > normal operation. Tends > > to freak people out, but (shrug). If you want super-long life, go > buy a Honda Civic. > Because it's what happens in the KLR doesn't always mean it's the best > - any chance you might agree with that as a general statement?

Uhm, see my statement about super-long life and Honda Civic .

> > The pressure will be low, due to the design of the system. The r/h > exhaust bearing often shows scuffing. This bearing is at the end of > the system, and the pressure reading is not taken there...........

Indeed. My suspicion is that the probable cause is viscosity breakdown resulting in too- low oil pressure in the system, i.e. the oil is so thin that it is all pouring out of lower ports before it gets way up there. The standard KLR oiling system is rather marginal, as you're well aware. Solution -- run an appropriate viscosity oil with shear-resistant VI's and change it often.

> A "premium" motorcycle specific oil recently wore cam lobes in just > 2000 miles. This oil shared down 25% in this test. There's been very

Wow. That's the sort of performance I'd expect from the Wally World .99c/quart special. Hard to believe that a so-called "premium synthetic" would do this. Makes me feel better about paying half as much for a diesel oil. Based on oil analysis results I've seen, the diesel oils do pretty much as well as anything else does, given the limitations of the KLR's oiling system and tendency to shear pretty much anything into irrelevancy. Probably not the best oils, but good 'nuff. -E

[Michael Nelson]

I'm a little distressed to see a couple guys I like and respect greatly taking public potshots at each other here. Fred & Mike, if you have to do this, could you please do it privately? Thanks Michael -- "Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID he just whipped out a quarter?" --Steven Wright San Francisco, CA

[Michael Nelson]

On Tue, Aug 21, 2007 at 12:50:10PM -0700, Michael Nelson wrote:

> I'm a little distressed to see a couple guys I like and respect greatly > taking public potshots at each other here.

Oops! I had mistakenly thought the Fred in this thread was Fred Hink of Arrowhead. He's the Fred I like and respect, and was distressed to see him acting like this other Fred has been. Never mind. Michael -- "Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID he just whipped out a quarter?" --Steven Wright San Francisco, CA

[Arden Kysely]

Did I miss something? Norm posted his opinions on oil, Mike disagreed with some of them in what I thought was a respectful way, Fred got bent. Nothing like a good oil thread to bring out the best in this list 8~) KLR content: I'm confused by the report on the link that Mike forwarded because the guy says not to use 10W-40 in any bike that shares tranny/engine oil, then recommends several of that weight. FWIW, I've run gallons of 10W-40 GTX thru many bikes over the years and never had an oil related problem. Now I'm on a 15W-40 Rotella T kick in my KLR. I figure if you stay away from the mileage enhancing stuff, there is good oil and better oil. The hard part is stiking a balance between cost, performance, and being kind to the planet in choosing your lube. Those on the list who do oil anaylses and report them here do us all a great service. __Arden

[Mike Frey]

Fighting.... Heh. This group is tame compared to all of the other email / board lists that I belong to. Except for one - but the rules on that one are so restrictive that it is no fun! Most of the KLR people get along pretty well, but nothing like an oil discussion to get the blood pumpin'! Mike

[Norm Keller]

I wrote a long reply to a couple of Eagle Mike's posts and then worked down to Bill Watson's which dealt with the subject (as usual) perfectly. I especially liked Bill's post because he agreed with me. (LOL) Thanks to both of you. Norm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Norm Keller" wrote:

> > I wrote a long reply to a couple of Eagle Mike's posts and then

worked down to Bill Watson's which dealt with the subject (as usual) perfectly.

> > I especially liked Bill's post because he agreed with me. (LOL) > > Thanks to both of you. > > Norm >

Norm, We've never met, maybe never will. Even when we don't agree, as I said, I still respect your opinion. all the best, Mike