new poll nklr (nmc?) admin ?!

[DPBiker]

"The opposite of a regular truth is a falsehood. But the opposite of a profound truth is another profound truth." Spider Robinson Message: 1 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:41:19 -0700 From: "Russell Scott" Subject: RE: NKLR beliefs "The chief cause of problems is solutions." -----Original Message----- From: Chris Krok [mailto:stingray@...] Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 7:42 AM To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_klr650] NKLR beliefs

> From: "nakedwaterskier" > Subject: Re:(was) WHY WE DIE! Very NKLR NKLR NKLR > > Convictions are worse than lies. >

And lying about your past convictions can get you in trouble, too... Krokko -- Dr. J. Christopher Krok John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[WILLAM GILMORE]

Hello! Welcome home! Out of respect to my fellow Vietnam veterans -- whenever I hear a war story I attempt to verify the source and the account. Nothing personal, but there's hundred's, perhaps thousands of guys posing as vets and/or telling war stories that never happened. Kindly provide me with your M.O.S. (number), your military I.D. number as it appears on your DD-214 and the dates of your duty WestPac. Also, please provide me with what Corps, and Province you served in and the location of where the incident you described took plance. Also, please list your personal and unit citations. Finally, if you can provide the name of someone you served with in-country and the city and state he's from -- that would be great. By the way, I'll give you my information immediately upon request. I'll let all the posters know the minute I have your details. It should only take you a few minutes. I apologize in advance if my request offends you but if you're like the rest of us bonafide vets we think any dishonety at all dishonors those who served and certainly those who died for their country. Thank you very much Will Gilmore U.S.M.C. Vietnam 1969-70 Madsion, WI nakedwaterskier wrote: Kurtz : I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us. List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Frey]

He was quoting Marlon Brando in the movie "Apocalypse Now". I missed the draft by 2 years. Didn't pursue my dream to become an Air Force pilot when I realized I had to have 4-8 years of college first! Oh, to be 18 and naive again...... WILLAM GILMORE wrote:

>Hello! > >Welcome home! Out of respect to my fellow Vietnam veterans -- whenever I hear a war story I attempt to verify the source and the account. Nothing personal, but there's hundred's, perhaps thousands of guys posing as vets and/or telling war stories that never happened. > >Kindly provide me with your M.O.S. (number), your military I.D. number as it appears on your DD-214 and the dates of your duty WestPac. Also, please provide me with what Corps, and Province you served in and the location of where the incident you described took plance. Also, please list your personal and unit citations. Finally, if you can provide the name of someone you served with in-country and the city and state he's from -- that would be great. > >By the way, I'll give you my information immediately upon request. > >I'll let all the posters know the minute I have your details. It should only take you a few minutes. > >I apologize in advance if my request offends you but if you're like the rest of us bonafide vets we think any dishonety at all dishonors those who served and certainly those who died for their country. > >Thank you very much > >Will Gilmore >U.S.M.C. >Vietnam 1969-70 >Madsion, WI > >nakedwaterskier wrote: > >Kurtz : I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have >no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You >have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's >impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do >not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you >must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your >friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They >are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems >a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the >children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for >Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He >couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off >every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little >arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some >grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I >wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. >I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... >like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my >forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. >The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. >And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could >stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained >cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, >who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the >strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of >those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to >have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to >utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... >without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because >it's judgment that defeats us. > > > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >

[WILLAM GILMORE]

Oops! Boy, do I feel stupid. I didn't know that that was Brando talking because I made it a point of not going to see the movie (I had to walk out of "Born on the 4th of July"). Sorry, Nakedwaterskier. I'm just an old overly sensitive jarhead, Vietnam vet who could write a book about the bullshit I've heard others spew out about that war. At certain points in time, you just have to say "enough is enough"! I even wrote Mary Beth Cahill -- the head of the Kerry campaign suggesting that they not let him posture or sell his hero cookies and war experiences in the campaign. It's not what combat vets normally do. But, of course I never knew one that was running for president of the U.S., either. As far as that goes, officers do things differently than us enlisted pogues. Will What the hell is this string about, anyway? Mike Frey wrote: He was quoting Marlon Brando in the movie "Apocalypse Now". I missed the draft by 2 years. Didn't pursue my dream to become an Air Force pilot when I realized I had to have 4-8 years of college first! Oh, to be 18 and naive again...... WILLAM GILMORE wrote:

>Hello! > >Welcome home! Out of respect to my fellow Vietnam veterans -- whenever I hear a war story I attempt to verify the source and the account. Nothing personal, but there's hundred's, perhaps thousands of guys posing as vets and/or telling war stories that never happened. > >Kindly provide me with your M.O.S. (number), your military I.D. number as it appears on your DD-214 and the dates of your duty WestPac. Also, please provide me with what Corps, and Province you served in and the location of where the incident you described took plance. Also, please list your personal and unit citations. Finally, if you can provide the name of someone you served with in-country and the city and state he's from -- that would be great. > >By the way, I'll give you my information immediately upon request. > >I'll let all the posters know the minute I have your details. It should only take you a few minutes. > >I apologize in advance if my request offends you but if you're like the rest of us bonafide vets we think any dishonety at all dishonors those who served and certainly those who died for their country. > >Thank you very much > >Will Gilmore >U.S.M.C. >Vietnam 1969-70 >Madsion, WI > >nakedwaterskier wrote: > >Kurtz : I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have >no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You >have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's >impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do >not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you >must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your >friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They >are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems >a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the >children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for >Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He >couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off >every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little >arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some >grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I >wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. >I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... >like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my >forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. >The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. >And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could >stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained >cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, >who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the >strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of >those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to >have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to >utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... >without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because >it's judgment that defeats us. > > > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mike Frey]

Started out as a "WHY WE DIE" essay (a good one) on highway MC accidents, degenerated into Land Cruisers with machine guns, and finally morphed into politics and armed forces. If we keep going, it may turn into a religious debate and finally some Ayatollah somewhere will issue a fatwah on the infidels. Typical transformation of a subject, happens all the time on all lists. WILLAM GILMORE wrote:

> Oops! Boy, do I feel stupid. I didn't know that that was Brando > talking because I made it a point of not going to see the movie (I had > to walk out of "Born on the 4th of July"). > > Sorry, Nakedwaterskier. I'm just an old overly sensitive jarhead, > Vietnam vet who could write a book about the bullshit I've heard > others spew out about that war. At certain points in time, you just > have to say "enough is enough"! > > I even wrote Mary Beth Cahill -- the head of the Kerry campaign > suggesting that they not let him posture or sell his hero cookies and > war experiences in the campaign. It's not what combat vets normally > do. But, of course I never knew one that was running for president of > the U.S., either. As far as that goes, officers do things differently > than us enlisted pogues. > > Will > > What the hell is this string about, anyway? > > > > Mike Frey wrote: > > He was quoting Marlon Brando in the movie "Apocalypse Now". > > I missed the draft by 2 years. Didn't pursue my dream to become an > Air > Force pilot when I realized I had to have 4-8 years of college first! > Oh, to be 18 and naive again...... > > > > WILLAM GILMORE wrote: > > >Hello! > > > >Welcome home! Out of respect to my fellow Vietnam veterans -- > whenever I hear a war story I attempt to verify the source and the > account. Nothing personal, but there's hundred's, perhaps > thousands of guys posing as vets and/or telling war stories that > never happened. > > > >Kindly provide me with your M.O.S. (number), your military I.D. > number as it appears on your DD-214 and the dates of your duty > WestPac. Also, please provide me with what Corps, and Province you > served in and the location of where the incident you described > took plance. Also, please list your personal and unit citations. > Finally, if you can provide the name of someone you served with > in-country and the city and state he's from -- that would be great. > > > >By the way, I'll give you my information immediately upon request. > > > >I'll let all the posters know the minute I have your details. It > should only take you a few minutes. > > > >I apologize in advance if my request offends you but if you're > like the rest of us bonafide vets we think any dishonety at all > dishonors those who served and certainly those who died for their > country. > > > >Thank you very much > > > >Will Gilmore > >U.S.M.C. > >Vietnam 1969-70 > >Madsion, WI > > > >nakedwaterskier wrote: > > > >Kurtz : I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have > >no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You > >have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's > >impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do > >not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you > >must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your > >friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They > >are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces. Seems > >a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate the > >children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for > >Polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He > >couldn't see. We went back there and they had come and hacked off > >every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little > >arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some > >grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I > >wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. > >I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... > >like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my > >forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. > >The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. > >And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could > >stand that these were not monsters. These were men... trained > >cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, > >who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the > >strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of > >those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to > >have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to > >utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... > >without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because > >it's judgment that defeats us. > > > > > > > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List > FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > >Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List > FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > >Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Krgrife@aol.com]

In a message dated 8/26/04 7:30:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, willgilmore@... writes:

> Welcome home! Out of respect to my fellow Vietnam veterans -- whenever I > hear a war story I attempt to verify the source and the account. Nothing > personal, but there's hundred's, perhaps thousands of guys posing as vets and/or > telling war stories that never happened. >

Fer Christ's sake! He's quoting Marlon Brando as Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse now- its a movie! Do your own homework before getting upset. Kurt Grife RA 17 635 775 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[WILLAM GILMORE]

Gee, Kurt. I'm not sure what homework I could do short of reading every movie script there is about Vietnam. I've already apologized to the nakedwaterskier. That's about all I can do for now. Besides, I'm rather pleased that I could spot bullshit when I read it - having been unfamiliar with the movie. My apologies to everyone who was inconveienced (or rattled, as Kurt was) because of my ignorance. Will Krgrife@... wrote: In a message dated 8/26/04 7:30:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, willgilmore@... writes: Welcome home! Out of respect to my fellow Vietnam veterans -- whenever I hear a war story I attempt to verify the source and the account. Nothing personal, but there's hundred's, perhaps thousands of guys posing as vets and/or telling war stories that never happened. Fer Christ's sake! He's quoting Marlon Brando as Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse now- its a movie! Do your own homework before getting upset. Kurt Grife RA 17 635 775 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[mwl_95623]

I'm with you Will. How were you supposed to know? There was no indication from nakedwaterskier that he was quoting somebody else. This list is beginning to suck big time! Matt --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, WILLAM GILMORE wrote:

> Gee, Kurt. I'm not sure what homework I could do short of reading

every movie script there is about Vietnam. I've already apologized to the nakedwaterskier. That's about all I can do for now. Besides, I'm rather pleased that I could spot bullshit when I read it - having been unfamiliar with the movie.

> > My apologies to everyone who was inconveienced (or rattled, as Kurt

was) because of my ignorance.

> > Will > > Krgrife@a... wrote: > > Fer Christ's sake! He's quoting Marlon Brando as Col. Kurtz in >Apocalypse now- its a movie! Do your own homework before getting >upset. > Kurt Grife > RA 17 635 775 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Judson D. Jones]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, WILLAM GILMORE wrote:

> Oops! Boy, do I feel stupid. I didn't know that that was Brando talking

because I made it a point of not going to see the movie (I had to walk out of "Born on the 4th of July").

> > Sorry, Nakedwaterskier. I'm just an old overly sensitive jarhead, Vietnam

vet who could write a book about the bullshit I've heard others spew out about that war. At certain points in time, you just have to say "enough is enough"!

> > I even wrote Mary Beth Cahill -- the head of the Kerry campaign suggesting

that they not let him posture or sell his hero cookies and war experiences in the campaign. It's not what combat vets normally do. But, of course I never knew one that was running for president of the U.S., either. As far as that goes, officers do things differently than us enlisted pogues. Ordinarily, I'd tend to agree with you. But Kerry is running against an incumbent who likes to swagger, spit and falk tough, but who avoided the war as a result of class privilege, and apparently didn't even show up for a good deal of his cake duty. Under the circumstances, I think it's fair for Kerry to call attention to the difference. Frankly, I don't understand why so many vets seem to want to fawn over Bush. Kerry not only served honorably, he was right to speak out against the war when he did. I'd feel a hell of a lot safer with him as Commander-in-Chief

[Judson D. Jones]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, WILLAM GILMORE wrote:

> Gee, Kurt. I'm not sure what homework I could do short of reading every

movie script there is about Vietnam. I've already apologized to the nakedwaterskier. That's about all I can do for now. Besides, I'm rather pleased that I could spot bullshit when I read it - having been unfamiliar with the movie.

> > My apologies to everyone who was inconveienced (or rattled, as Kurt was)

because of my ignorance.

>

Inconvenienced? Hardly. Fishing is a great spectator sport on this list, and you were caught by one of the best trolls yet. ;-{>