mid-atlantic wrenchfest, v2.0

[Chris Krok]

> From: "ustaownbmw" > Subject: Sunoco 100/104 > > Can any benefit be derived by using high octane gas in a KLR650? > Someone once told me that compression was too high or low or whatever > for high octane to do anything. My dealer told me to use 91 just > cause it's there - not much more expensive than 87 and maybe higher > quality?

As I've heard it, high-octane gasolines of today are really designed for turbocharged engines, and are slower-burning. You may actually lose power running a high-octane gas in a low-compression engine. High octanes are only a benefit (requirement, actually) of engines designed to take advantage of them. Krokko -- Dr. J. Christopher Krok John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125

[matteeanne@yahoo.com]

Wow, I am (and always have been) under the impression that higher octane simply burns more thoroughly, thus leaving no carbon (or less carbon) behind. I use only premium? One of you rocket scientists chime in here and sooth my soul by telling me premium is the way to go! --- Chris Krok wrote:

> > > From: "ustaownbmw" > > Subject: Sunoco 100/104 > > > > Can any benefit be derived by using high octane > gas in a KLR650? > > Someone once told me that compression was too high > or low or whatever > > for high octane to do anything. My dealer told me > to use 91 just > > cause it's there - not much more expensive than 87 > and maybe higher > > quality? > > As I've heard it, high-octane gasolines of today are > really designed for > turbocharged engines, and are slower-burning. You > may actually lose > power running a high-octane gas in a low-compression > engine. High > octanes are only a benefit (requirement, actually) > of engines designed > to take advantage of them. > > Krokko > > > -- > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel > Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris > Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >

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[Lujo Bauer]

Nope, octane changes how *quickly* the gasoline burns. Different engines are optimized to take advantage of different burning speeds. By using a fuel that the engine is not designed to use, you gain nothing, and possibly get lower efficiency. -Lujo (not a rocket scientist) matteeanne@... wrote:

> Wow, I am (and always have been) under the impression > that higher octane simply burns more thoroughly, thus > leaving no carbon (or less carbon) behind. I use only > premium? One of you rocket scientists chime in here > and sooth my soul by telling me premium is the way to > go!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ron Crandell]

A quick pipe-in on this issue... Most gas stations sell more 87 and 89 octane fuel, and less 91/92 octane. What does have to do with the cost of tea in China? Well, that means that the "premium" fuel tanks sit longer, half-full, which can accumulate water and other contaminants... Now, I grew up in a gas station, and this is a fact. However, is it a big deal? Not really in this day and age. I agree with the understanding that the higher the octane, the slower it burns. If it pings, go higher, if it doesn't, then the engine's happy.. Just another $.02 for the day.. Use the information for what it's worth. Ron in MN.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Wow, I am (and always have been) under the impression > that higher octane simply burns more thoroughly, thus > leaving no carbon (or less carbon) behind. I use only > premium? One of you rocket scientists chime in here > and sooth my soul by telling me premium is the way to > go! > --- Chris Krok wrote: > > > > > From: "ustaownbmw" > > > Subject: Sunoco 100/104 > > > > > > Can any benefit be derived by using high octane > > gas in a KLR650? > > > Someone once told me that compression was too high > > or low or whatever > > > for high octane to do anything. My dealer told me > > to use 91 just > > > cause it's there - not much more expensive than 87 > > and maybe higher > > > quality? > > > > As I've heard it, high-octane gasolines of today are > > really designed for > > turbocharged engines, and are slower-burning. You > > may actually lose > > power running a high-octane gas in a low-compression > > engine. High > > octanes are only a benefit (requirement, actually) > > of engines designed > > to take advantage of them. > > > > Krokko > > > > > > -- > > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > > John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel > > Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris > > Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/

[KLR Rider - Scott Adams]

I would think far more important for us riders is that many pumps use a one hose system. I am no techno pump professor but as I understand it, after a cut off a significant (I have heard 1 - 4 gallons or more) of fuel remains in the hose between the line/switch between tanks and the nozzel. If you are buying 25 gallons - no big deal. But if you are buying 3 gallons you may very well be paying the higher price and STILL just getting the remains of the guy in front of you who bought the cheap stuff. -Scott

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Crandell" To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 2:21 PM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: hi-octane > A quick pipe-in on this issue... Most gas stations sell more 87 and > 89 octane fuel, and less 91/92 octane. What does have to do with the > cost of tea in China? Well, that means that the "premium" fuel tanks > sit longer, half-full, which can accumulate water and other > contaminants... Now, I grew up in a gas station, and this is a > fact. However, is it a big deal? Not really in this day and age. I > agree with the understanding that the higher the octane, the slower > it burns. If it pings, go higher, if it doesn't, then the engine's > happy.. > > Just another $.02 for the day.. Use the information for what it's > worth. > > Ron in MN. > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Wow, I am (and always have been) under the impression > > that higher octane simply burns more thoroughly, thus > > leaving no carbon (or less carbon) behind. I use only > > premium? One of you rocket scientists chime in here > > and sooth my soul by telling me premium is the way to > > go! > > --- Chris Krok wrote: > > > > > > > From: "ustaownbmw" > > > > Subject: Sunoco 100/104 > > > > > > > > Can any benefit be derived by using high octane > > > gas in a KLR650? > > > > Someone once told me that compression was too high > > > or low or whatever > > > > for high octane to do anything. My dealer told me > > > to use 91 just > > > > cause it's there - not much more expensive than 87 > > > and maybe higher > > > > quality? > > > > > > As I've heard it, high-octane gasolines of today are > > > really designed for > > > turbocharged engines, and are slower-burning. You > > > may actually lose > > > power running a high-octane gas in a low-compression > > > engine. High > > > octanes are only a benefit (requirement, actually) > > > of engines designed > > > to take advantage of them. > > > > > > Krokko > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > > > John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel > > > Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > > > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris > > > Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

[Chris Krok]

matteeanne@... wrote:

> > Wow, I am (and always have been) under the impression > that higher octane simply burns more thoroughly, thus > leaving no carbon (or less carbon) behind. I use only > premium? One of you rocket scientists chime in here > and sooth my soul by telling me premium is the way to > go!

No, it has nothing to do with the cleanliness of the burn. Strictly resistance to pre-ignition. Krokko -- Dr. J. Christopher Krok John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125

[PJ Riss]

As a former Refinery Operator who made more than a few gallons of the stuff and a current "egghead" on combustion process, I guess I'll chime in here. Octane is inversely proportional to BTU content. High octane burns cooler and is not as volatile and can (and must) therefore be used in high performance engines. High volume/compression engines use high octane fuel and the power is a result of the added mass. This can all be proven by looking at exhaust gasses. A hotter flame (low octane fueled) produces more oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and less carbon monoxide (CO) whereas the inverse is true for the same engine burning high octane fuel. Remember this if your old klunker has trouble passing a smog test. Other than the valid point of premium gas sitting in the underground tank longer and having a higher chance of getting contaminated, I can't see any risk or noticable loss in using it in a KLR. In fact, I like to use it when it's really hot since it does burn cooler and I haven't done my needle and jet change out yet. Paul Rio Linda CA A16 --- matteeanne@... wrote:

> Wow, I am (and always have been) under the > impression > that higher octane simply burns more thoroughly, > thus > leaving no carbon (or less carbon) behind. I use > only > premium? One of you rocket scientists chime in here > and sooth my soul by telling me premium is the way > to > go! > --- Chris Krok wrote: > > > > > From: "ustaownbmw" > > > Subject: Sunoco 100/104 > > > > > > Can any benefit be derived by using high octane > > gas in a KLR650? > > > Someone once told me that compression was too > high > > or low or whatever > > > for high octane to do anything. My dealer told > me > > to use 91 just > > > cause it's there - not much more expensive than > 87 > > and maybe higher > > > quality? > > > > As I've heard it, high-octane gasolines of today > are > > really designed for > > turbocharged engines, and are slower-burning. You > > may actually lose > > power running a high-octane gas in a > low-compression > > engine. High > > octanes are only a benefit (requirement, actually) > > of engines designed > > to take advantage of them. > > > > Krokko > > > > > > -- > > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > > John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel > > Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris > > Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris > Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >

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[PJ Riss]

That's a really good point! --- KLR Rider - Scott Adams wrote:

> I would think far more important for us riders is > that many pumps use a one > hose system. I am no techno pump professor but as I > understand it, after a > cut off a significant (I have heard 1 - 4 gallons or > more) of fuel remains > in the hose between the line/switch between tanks > and the nozzel. > > If you are buying 25 gallons - no big deal. But if > you are buying 3 gallons > you may very well be paying the higher price and > STILL just getting the > remains of the guy in front of you who bought the > cheap stuff. > > -Scott > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Crandell" > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 2:21 PM > Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: hi-octane > > > > A quick pipe-in on this issue... Most gas > stations sell more 87 and > > 89 octane fuel, and less 91/92 octane. What does > have to do with the > > cost of tea in China? Well, that means that the > "premium" fuel tanks > > sit longer, half-full, which can accumulate water > and other > > contaminants... Now, I grew up in a gas station, > and this is a > > fact. However, is it a big deal? Not really in > this day and age. I > > agree with the understanding that the higher the > octane, the slower > > it burns. If it pings, go higher, if it doesn't, > then the engine's > > happy.. > > > > Just another $.02 for the day.. Use the > information for what it's > > worth. > > > > Ron in MN. > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > Wow, I am (and always have been) under the > impression > > > that higher octane simply burns more thoroughly, > thus > > > leaving no carbon (or less carbon) behind. I use > only > > > premium? One of you rocket scientists chime in > here > > > and sooth my soul by telling me premium is the > way to > > > go! > > > --- Chris Krok wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: "ustaownbmw" > > > > > Subject: Sunoco 100/104 > > > > > > > > > > Can any benefit be derived by using high > octane > > > > gas in a KLR650? > > > > > Someone once told me that compression was > too high > > > > or low or whatever > > > > > for high octane to do anything. My dealer > told me > > > > to use 91 just > > > > > cause it's there - not much more expensive > than 87 > > > > and maybe higher > > > > > quality? > > > > > > > > As I've heard it, high-octane gasolines of > today are > > > > really designed for > > > > turbocharged engines, and are slower-burning. > You > > > > may actually lose > > > > power running a high-octane gas in a > low-compression > > > > engine. High > > > > octanes are only a benefit (requirement, > actually) > > > > of engines designed > > > > to take advantage of them. > > > > > > > > Krokko > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > > > > John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel > > > > Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > > > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > > > > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of > Chris > > > > Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! > Messenger. > > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ > courtesy of Chris Krok at: > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris > Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >

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[pete88chester]

In response to Question: Is hi-octane the way to go? Chris Krock answered: "No, it has nothing to do with the cleanliness of the burn. Strictly resistance to pre-ignition. Krokko" I agree with Chris. Higher octane gas has additives that give a micro second pause when a critical pressure/temperature is reached that would cause the remaining fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber to spontaneously combust causing a shock wave (the pinging or knocking sound). This pause allows the flame front to consume the remaining fuel/air mixture at a relatively gradual rate with a resulting gradual pressure increase (no shock wave). What octane the manufacturer requires has to do with a lot of design factors; compression ratio, cylinder bore size, combustion chamber design, spark plug quantity (big bore slow turning engines sometimes have dual plugs so two flame fronts burn off the fuel/air before detonation occurs), RPM range, etc. The thing is that if an engine is capable of running on 87-octane gas, you are gaining nothing by using a higher-octane gas. You will not get more power or better fuel economy & it doesn't burn any cleaner. Some people claim you need 91 octane in the KLR650. I use 87 octane & have no trouble with pinging & get good mileage & power. Pete Chester A16

[Keith Saltzer]

>You will not get more power or better > fuel economy & it doesn't burn any cleaner. Some people claim you > need 91 octane in the KLR650. I use 87 octane & have no trouble

with

> pinging & get good mileage & power. Pete Chester A16

Ditto. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)