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Glenn
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed May 25, 2005 9:19 pm

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by Glenn » Wed May 19, 2004 2:21 am

KDXKawboy, I don't believe that is true. The most recent complaints I have heard being discussed were within the past 10 days, apparently some tech calls are being forwarded to India. How can you be absolutely sure about that? Over 50 percent of Dell's 44,300 employees are employed overseas and I'm sure they are STILL forwarding many calls. ;)
--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, kdxkawboy@a... wrote: > In a message dated 2004-05-18 12:18:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > Glenn@k... writes: > > > > > Dell is one of them. They employ hundreds of people over in INDIA to > > handle tech support because it's cheaper than paying Americans. They > > don't handle specific questions very well at all (they stick to the > > manual) and you may have trouble understanding what the hell they are > > saying. Several analists were saying it is good for business because > > of increased profit margins, but when your customers are pulling > > their hair out on the other end of the phone I don't consider that > > good for business. > > > > "Dude, I'm NOT getting a Dell". > > > > > > Dude, you are way behind the times. It was a couple of months ago that Dell > close down the India Tech Center because of too many customer complaints. > > Also, for the last year statistics have shown several other companies that > pulled out of outsourcing to India because in the long run it just doesn't work. > I work for GE and in the IT groups were are cutting back between 10- 20% on > outsourcing - we are bringing jobs back because we discovered too much loss of > intellectual property in the minds of the people who's jobs were outsourced. > Also GE brought its support center back from India to Canada because for tech > support the India Data Center just can't be made to work. And in the last month > or so there have been several stories about high tech firms in India out > sourcing jobs back to the US of A. > > This is a very complex topic that really defies the simplistic, jingoistic > sound bites being tossed out by politicians. > > Pat > G'ville, Nv > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stan
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2004 11:48 am

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by Stan » Wed May 19, 2004 2:30 am

Hi Eric, I have taken a look at some of your writings on badtux and kuro5hin, and found the experience enjoyable. As for your outsourcing-as-slavery metaphor, I wonder if you might be willing to explain it further. One thing that gives me pause is the dichotomy you presuppose between us, who are free, and them, who are enslaved. While I am thankful for the (for the time being) elevated standard of living we have here, and for the fact that our government is not wholly corrupt as it is in some places, what is the fundamental difference between us and, say, the Indians who live in the world's largest representative democracy (ridiculously corrupt though it may be)? Perhaps, as an immigrant myself, I am missing the point, but it seems that here in the US our destiny as a nation is shaped by the prevailing financial powers - corporations and industry/professional associations with their respective PACs - and also by the more vocal and/or wealthy and/or politically inscendiary special interest groups (i.e. the fundies, the one-legged bisexual dwarves, the oh-so-oppressed minorities, Sierra Club, etc). The destiny of the average pleb (such as you and me, presumably) is to work for the benefit of our corporate masters, and in return be given the means to maintain a family equipped with the average collection of lifestyle-defining products purchased from these same corporations. This seems very similar to what is happening to the non-agrarian pleb in a place such as India, save for their inferior salaries and protections. The difference seems in degree rather than principle, you know what I mean? (There is a difference with an overt dictatorship such as China, I grant you that. But let's talk about some less radical example - India, the new democracies of Central Europe, etc. Better yet, remember the leap of IT/ semi industry to Ireland a few years back? Are they slaves, per your metaphor? Or would you be inclined to agree that it is after all a difference in degree, rather than a free/slave dichotomy?) With outsourcing, our corporate masters have decided to hire some cheaper plebs, who are as you rightly say less troublesome insofar as regulations, lawsuits, human rights, environment, ethics, and such things are concerned. Trouble is measured in dollars; less trouble translates into bigger profits, as do smaller salaries. Why you say outsourcing is not financially motivated, I am not sure. Perhaps if you believe in that the primary motivator of those in power is to oppress, then I can see how you may justify this position. I tend to think that the fundamental nature of man is largely self-serving, and that the primary motivation is wealth / power itself, with the evil that may or may not befall the pleb in the process of these macroscopic trends is just a side-effect that they don't much care about. I rather doubt the owners of the semiconductor outfit you mentioned thought to themselves, gee, let's poison some Chinese today and make sure they are oppressed thereby. I think it much more likely that they were concerned with their bottom line and simply didn't give a f*ck that more babies in Guanzhou will be born with illnesses and deformities while their parents deal with cancer due to cheap and unconstrained chemical dumping. Indeed, it is not unlikely that some Chinese corporate VP brokered the deal with their Chinese gov't counterparts with the help of Chinese-staffed law firms, smiling all the way. Their families will eat well; who cares about the rest. Does this not seem more plausible to you? Cheers, Stan

Lee Dickinson
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:59 am

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by Lee Dickinson » Wed May 19, 2004 5:03 am

> I have taken a look at some of your writings on badtux and kuro5hin, and > found the experience enjoyable.
Wow Stan, well said. This topic has gotten a lot of "talk" on the list, so I thought I'd interject a source of information from the group in our government who have been charged with bringing information before Congress regarding the impacts (economic and security) of expanded trade with China - including the offshoring of formerly US jobs. If you read the information on this site, you will determine that the average Congressman probably has not. Here are some links... Hearing Transcript for February 12, 13, 2004 @ The University of California - San Diego: China as an Emerging Regional and Technology Power: Implications for U.S. Economic and Security Interests: http://www.uscc.gov/hearings/2004hearings/transcripts/04_02_12.pdf General US-China Commission site... http://www.uscc.gov/index.html Lee / A7 - Colbert, GA USA

kdxkawboy@aol.com
Posts: 1442
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:59 pm

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by kdxkawboy@aol.com » Wed May 19, 2004 7:35 am

In a message dated 2004-05-18 6:23:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, westnash1@... writes:
> > Yee Haw a real southerner!!! I say to the originator of this post > once again that if your friend wants to pay $15 an hour he can get > people working on the side here in the USA to do it in a > heartbeat,,,,As is said if he goes overseas many problems will > occur,,,,theft of his idea...promises never kept,,,links with the > russian mafia and his bank account,,,,as an individual he is not > large enough to go overseas really and it will be an expensve lesson > as well as one anti american.....I actually bet he could get a klr > owner to do the project...now howa about that > > j >
Anyone who thinks they are a programmer without the formal training or experience is blowing smoke. Industry statistics for the last twenty years ha consistently shown that 90% of the commercial software programs flat fail in the eyes of the user. Back when I was a newbie in this trade I used to do a lot of side work for under the table cash, working on programs that were created by the likes of the folks you suggest and every one of time was nothing but junk, like an HD. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kdxkawboy@aol.com
Posts: 1442
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:59 pm

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by kdxkawboy@aol.com » Wed May 19, 2004 7:47 am

In a message dated 2004-05-19 12:23:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Glenn@... writes:
> > KDXKawboy, I don't believe that is true. The most recent complaints I > have heard being discussed were within the past 10 days, apparently > some tech calls are being forwarded to India. > How can you be absolutely sure about that? > Over 50 percent of Dell's 44,300 employees are employed overseas > and I'm sure they are STILL forwarding many calls. ;) > >
It was the big news in all the magazines like Infoworld, eWeek, ComputerWorld, CIO and a half dozen other trade journals that I read on a regular basis. To put another face on this discusion, most companies doing the outsourcing have publicly traded stock. WHo do you think keeps putting the pressure on these companies to keep improving the bottom line? With the rising cost of US based employees where do you think the idea comes from that outsourcing is good? Its all them stockholders wanting their DOT.COM boom stock returns. Like the movie Wall Street said, greed is good, it keeps us in the mood for screwing each other. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul Wilson

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by Paul Wilson » Wed May 19, 2004 10:52 am

-----Original Message----- From: "Eric L. Green"
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Lujo Bauer wrote: > Do people dislike outsourcing because of socialistic brainwashing? I > spent a buncha years getting (presumably socialistically) brainwashed in > socialist public schools, and I still have no problem with outsourcing > if that's what market forces cause to happen. In 1776, these words were written by a bunch of socialist commies: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to ^^ secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ just powers from the consent of the governed, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Markets do not care about human rights. Markets do not care about life or liberty. ... ------------- You are sorely mistaken on this point. Markets do care about *property* rights and to hold property is a basic human right. Whenever the government (or any thug with a weapon) can take your property at will, markets cannot function very well. This why corrupt and totalitarian governments tend not to foster thriving economies. And those Founders you cite: the principal casus belli for those folks was a series of taxes, taxes imposed by a parliament sitting across an ocean. In other words, they went to the mat over property rights. The nexus between free markets, property rights and individual political rights was well understood by the Founders. Less so by the modern left, apparently. I have to contain my astonishment about the sudden hoopla over the horrors of IT "outsourcing." Seems that now a bunch of white-collar IT workers are the ones being affected and they have a megaphone called the internet. Their sudden solidarity with blue collar workers is touching. Where were all these folks when the American auto and apparel industries were being decimated by foreign competitors and thousands of jobs were "lost?" Oh, they were probably too busy driving their nice imported cars over to Wal-Mart to buy cheap skivvies made in Mexico and they didn't have time to notice. Paul in DC - www.wilsonline.org 95 VFR [Sport-tour] - 96 KLR650 [Dirt-tour]

Eric L. Green
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:41 pm

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by Eric L. Green » Wed May 19, 2004 11:03 am

On Wed, 19 May 2004, Stan wrote:
> Hi Eric, > > I have taken a look at some of your writings on badtux and kuro5hin, and > found the experience enjoyable. > > As for your outsourcing-as-slavery metaphor, I wonder if you might be > willing to explain it further. One thing that gives me pause is the
I think this is neither the time nor place for that, since we're talking about pulling together a number of my writings that are not at all obvious or simple. I'll respond off the list a bit later. For the moment I need to go see what my KLR does on the freeway without its windshield :-). -E

Russell Scott
Posts: 1083
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:16 pm

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by Russell Scott » Wed May 19, 2004 4:29 pm

"Americans have been taught to know when opportunity knocks, but the socialist seem determined to knock opportunity." --Ronald Reagan "A lot of people mean well, but their meanness is greater than their wellness." --Robert Hunter -----Original Message----- From: Paul Wilson [mailto:viffermaniac@...] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 2:08 PM To: Eric L. Green Cc: Eric L. Green; Lujo Bauer; Russell Scott Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Re: NKLR - Job outsourcing You do love crisis-mongering don't you? ;-)

Lee Dickinson
Posts: 75
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:59 am

nklr - job outsourcing

Post by Lee Dickinson » Wed May 19, 2004 5:24 pm

>...and every one of time was nothing but junk, > like an HD. > > Pat > G'ville, Nv
Did they leak code all over the cubicles and floor? Did they all wear "JOG" shirts (Java Owners' Group)? Lee A7 / Colbert, GA USofA

bigfatgreenbike
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:24 pm

helmet cam riding home from work video.....

Post by bigfatgreenbike » Wed May 19, 2004 8:55 pm

a_boy_and_his_dog@... wrote:
>so what are you riding for the video, since it doesn't look like a KLR. >
http://xd8ad0695.ip.e-nt.net/klr/modded_klr.jpg It is indeed a KLR. Swapped out the front end for a DRZ setup, and took off the stock fairing, bracket, etc. for an Acerbis DOT-legal fork-mounted fairing. -- Devon Brooklyn, NY A15-Z '01 KLR650 '81 SR500 cafe racer "The truth's not too popular these days....." Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

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