Hi All:
I would like to put seat belts in my TC. Have any of you done so and if
so can you give me some ideas on attachment points etc. I know it's not
original and I really don't want to do it but my wife is very
uncomfortable riding in the car without a seatbelt. Any help is greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken TC 4147
Re: Seat Belts
-
Art King
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Tue Nov 30, 1999 3:33 pm
seat belts
Ken,
If I recall correctly there was an article in the TSO in the past
couple of years on installing seat belts in a T series car. It will be
a couple of days before I can get to my stack of back issues. I used a
set of spare belts that I anchored to the frame, but don't recall the
exact points. Will check and get back to you. Art
If I recall correctly there was an article in the TSO in the past
couple of years on installing seat belts in a T series car. It will be
a couple of days before I can get to my stack of back issues. I used a
set of spare belts that I anchored to the frame, but don't recall the
exact points. Will check and get back to you. Art
-
FDShade@aol.com
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 1999 3:14 pm
Seat belts
One of these days we will figure out how to store and index all messages sent
to the T-ABC List. In the meantime we have been able to save and index some
of the hundreds of messages that have been emailed over the past couple of
years. Here are some of the messages regarding seat belts that were sent in
response to Dave's seat belt question:
"Those of you who have fitted lap belts to your T-types - where exactly did
you attach them to the car? Is it possible to safely fit three-point belts
without having a roll-over bar to which to attach the shoulder strap? Thanks
in advance, Dave TC9964 Aberdeen"
=====
. I haven't put any seat belts in my TC yet. (emphasis on the yet.) My
hesitation is because of my concerns about being strapped into a car without
any rollover protection. Right now, I am restoring a Meyers Manx style dune
buggy and am including 4 point harnesses and a roll bar. Not an easy task
as I didn't want to hack it up as it is an original - built in 1968 on a 1953
VW floor pan. Pretty much the same problem with putting crash protection in
a T. After I get through with this project, I'll start to figure out the
same solution for the TC. My solution for the dune buggy was to anchor the
shoulder harnesses to the roll bar. I plan on a similar design for the TC.
The main difference - and the main problem - is to design proper bracing
without hacking up the car. When I do come up with my solution, I want to
get your opinions before I actually do anything. I would rather have my
pride hurt in discovering that my idea wasn't a very good one than to have
something else hurt when it didn't perform as expected. Note: if any of you
are looking for a good 4-point harness, dune buggy suppliers have a wide
assortment of them at reasonable prices. One last thought while we are
thinking about safety - has anyone ever considered modifying a TC steering
column so it would be collapsible in an accident? That is an awfully long
spear pointing at your chest. Enough of that - If I keep thinking like that
I'll sell my MGs and buy a Volvo - FAT CHANCE! Cheers, Charles Hill "
=======
Having been involved with a big Chevy that left my TA looking a lot like
that TC in the OCC bulletin, I decided to fit a 3 pt belt system after the TA
was rebuilt. We mounted the upper point on top of the wheel well with a very
large piece of steel plate underneath to spread the load. Sure it might rip
out but while doing so it will absorb lots of energy. After my accident, I
feel I have some notion as to the forces involved and I am convinced that if
I had a 3 pt. belt on that day instead of a two point, I would not have
broken my sternum on the steering wheel, nor bloodied my nose on the dash.
Our cars are not like new cars and they crush in a wreck unlike modern jelly
beans and absorb huge amounts of energy. My front axle looked like a
pretzel! I mounted the two floor points so that I could pick up the angle
iron frame. This is not perfect but my lap belt prevented me from being
thrown out of the car and did not pull out of the angle irons.....In an
accident like this (I T- boned the chevy at about 40mph), there are no
garantees no matter the car you are in....just try to minmize the damage to
your body, and in my opinion getting thrown out of the car just about insures
lots of damage. Just my HO.,,, Terry"
=====
"To belt up or not to belt up, that's the question. Having seen the photo of
a TC that had been arguing with a Range Rover in the Octagon Car Clubs
Bulletin a couple of months ago, I decided to look into the fitting of seat
belts. I know that some others who saw the photo decided that they were not
going to fit belts, but that's one of the beauties of a list such as this.
So whilst not wanting to go into the better thrown out of the car argument,
and as Dave is also thinking along these lines here are my two penneth of
thoughts. Having looked at the floor mountings for a lap belt, the body frame
bolt seems to be a good mounting, also used is a large hole through the main
wooden spar to hold an eye bolt. Inboard the support can be made with u bolts
around the round chassis spacer bar, or using the floor board bracket, or a
combination of the two. The upper location for a three point system does
present a problem. The TD chassis sweeps over the rear axle and provides a
firm, albeit low anchoring point. Alas, the TC chassis is even lower. I have
spoken with a company that has fitted lap & diagonal belts to T types and
earlier MGs. They have used the seat back bracket, with a large reinforcing
plate behind to spread the load. Now, having fitted new inner rear wings to
my TC, I know how easy it would be to rip it out. With a conventional lap &
diag. belt this would slacken the whole belt system. I cant see a much
better point, other than perhaps a more radical approach that most of us
wouldn't want on our cars. If the seat belt was made (professionally) from a
lap - two point belt, with a separate belt fitted to go over the shoulder,
the lap part would not loosen when and if the shoulder part mounting point
moved. We would then have a secure belt system that would restrict lower
body movement and take a lot of the force from upper body movement. Also in
the case of a severe bump, the spinal compression for taller drivers may not
be so severe. Just looking at that wiper motor, and thinking what it, and the
solid edges of the dashboard could do to a face of the passenger, makes this
an important point to discuss. Any other thoughts out there other than
fitting a roll over bar?? Interestingly, I've discussed this with the
Development Manager at Morgan Cars, who still use Ash frames. They bolt the
upper point into the side part of the ash, with a plate behind. Whilst I
wouldn't dream of suggesting this for a TC as the side frame is completely
different, it works well on the Morgan. The ash framed body has, of course,
been impact tested at the Motor Industry Research Establishment near where I
live, and surprised the younger testers as it withstood the impact much
better than many modern vehicles Safety Fast! Steve Taylor "
===
"When I installed my 3 pt. belts, I recognized that all I might be able to do
was to soften the blow somewhat and to keep me in the car. With that in
mind, I attached the down piece of the longer belt (the door side) to the
drivers side rear corner floorboard bolt that passes through the frame or the
support thats welded onto the frame. The upper end of that belt is held in
place between the wing nut (bolt) and the seat back adjuster bracket. This
is the waekest point in the beal attachment scheme. I figure in a real bad
crash that bracket will rip out of the wheel arch, but it might slow down my
forward motion a lot. The other belt (tye one with the clasp on the end. I
mounted between the other drivers side rear corner floorboard bolt and the
floorboard. ( That bolt also passes through a steel support for the
floorboard. Repeat the process for the passenger's side. Not perfect but it
works ok. Best of all on really rought and potholed or bumpy roads the
shoulder belt keeps my butt in one place on the seat. Now, I am 5'5' and the
shoulder belt does not arch over my shoulder very much. If I were 6', I
don't know how that would feel, but it's better than nothing. On another
note do not forget to use a lanyard between the underdash and the door lock
handle. Last year on the way to GoF West, my wife did not get her door
completely latched and we went off with her door in the safety catch notch.
About 60 or 65 mph and a good bump and her door flew open, caught a good
amount of air and swung all the way back onto the fender (bending the door
check rod and pulling a little sheet metal around the door check hole with
it!. We always hook up the rawhide sling to the inside door handles, now!
David P Norris wrote: > Those of you who have fitted lap belts to your
T-types - where exactly did you attach them to the car? > Is it possible to
safely fit three-point belts without having a roll-over bar to which to
attach the shoulder strap? > Thanks in advance, > Dave > TC9964 > Aberdeen "
===
you can find an exact imaged documentation on that in the book: "
The complete MG TD" (!) restoration manual by Horst Schach
pg. 153 and on i would suggest in that parts the TC and TD is similar
regards walter David P Norris wrote: > > Those of you who have
fitted lap belts to your T-types - where exactly did you attach them to the
car? > Is it possible to safely fit three-point belts without having a
roll-over bar to which to attach the shoulder strap? > Thanks in advance, >
Dave > TC9964 > Aberdeen --"
===Hope this helps -- Jim Shade, West Covina CA
to the T-ABC List. In the meantime we have been able to save and index some
of the hundreds of messages that have been emailed over the past couple of
years. Here are some of the messages regarding seat belts that were sent in
response to Dave's seat belt question:
"Those of you who have fitted lap belts to your T-types - where exactly did
you attach them to the car? Is it possible to safely fit three-point belts
without having a roll-over bar to which to attach the shoulder strap? Thanks
in advance, Dave TC9964 Aberdeen"
=====
. I haven't put any seat belts in my TC yet. (emphasis on the yet.) My
hesitation is because of my concerns about being strapped into a car without
any rollover protection. Right now, I am restoring a Meyers Manx style dune
buggy and am including 4 point harnesses and a roll bar. Not an easy task
as I didn't want to hack it up as it is an original - built in 1968 on a 1953
VW floor pan. Pretty much the same problem with putting crash protection in
a T. After I get through with this project, I'll start to figure out the
same solution for the TC. My solution for the dune buggy was to anchor the
shoulder harnesses to the roll bar. I plan on a similar design for the TC.
The main difference - and the main problem - is to design proper bracing
without hacking up the car. When I do come up with my solution, I want to
get your opinions before I actually do anything. I would rather have my
pride hurt in discovering that my idea wasn't a very good one than to have
something else hurt when it didn't perform as expected. Note: if any of you
are looking for a good 4-point harness, dune buggy suppliers have a wide
assortment of them at reasonable prices. One last thought while we are
thinking about safety - has anyone ever considered modifying a TC steering
column so it would be collapsible in an accident? That is an awfully long
spear pointing at your chest. Enough of that - If I keep thinking like that
I'll sell my MGs and buy a Volvo - FAT CHANCE! Cheers, Charles Hill "
=======
Having been involved with a big Chevy that left my TA looking a lot like
that TC in the OCC bulletin, I decided to fit a 3 pt belt system after the TA
was rebuilt. We mounted the upper point on top of the wheel well with a very
large piece of steel plate underneath to spread the load. Sure it might rip
out but while doing so it will absorb lots of energy. After my accident, I
feel I have some notion as to the forces involved and I am convinced that if
I had a 3 pt. belt on that day instead of a two point, I would not have
broken my sternum on the steering wheel, nor bloodied my nose on the dash.
Our cars are not like new cars and they crush in a wreck unlike modern jelly
beans and absorb huge amounts of energy. My front axle looked like a
pretzel! I mounted the two floor points so that I could pick up the angle
iron frame. This is not perfect but my lap belt prevented me from being
thrown out of the car and did not pull out of the angle irons.....In an
accident like this (I T- boned the chevy at about 40mph), there are no
garantees no matter the car you are in....just try to minmize the damage to
your body, and in my opinion getting thrown out of the car just about insures
lots of damage. Just my HO.,,, Terry"
=====
"To belt up or not to belt up, that's the question. Having seen the photo of
a TC that had been arguing with a Range Rover in the Octagon Car Clubs
Bulletin a couple of months ago, I decided to look into the fitting of seat
belts. I know that some others who saw the photo decided that they were not
going to fit belts, but that's one of the beauties of a list such as this.
So whilst not wanting to go into the better thrown out of the car argument,
and as Dave is also thinking along these lines here are my two penneth of
thoughts. Having looked at the floor mountings for a lap belt, the body frame
bolt seems to be a good mounting, also used is a large hole through the main
wooden spar to hold an eye bolt. Inboard the support can be made with u bolts
around the round chassis spacer bar, or using the floor board bracket, or a
combination of the two. The upper location for a three point system does
present a problem. The TD chassis sweeps over the rear axle and provides a
firm, albeit low anchoring point. Alas, the TC chassis is even lower. I have
spoken with a company that has fitted lap & diagonal belts to T types and
earlier MGs. They have used the seat back bracket, with a large reinforcing
plate behind to spread the load. Now, having fitted new inner rear wings to
my TC, I know how easy it would be to rip it out. With a conventional lap &
diag. belt this would slacken the whole belt system. I cant see a much
better point, other than perhaps a more radical approach that most of us
wouldn't want on our cars. If the seat belt was made (professionally) from a
lap - two point belt, with a separate belt fitted to go over the shoulder,
the lap part would not loosen when and if the shoulder part mounting point
moved. We would then have a secure belt system that would restrict lower
body movement and take a lot of the force from upper body movement. Also in
the case of a severe bump, the spinal compression for taller drivers may not
be so severe. Just looking at that wiper motor, and thinking what it, and the
solid edges of the dashboard could do to a face of the passenger, makes this
an important point to discuss. Any other thoughts out there other than
fitting a roll over bar?? Interestingly, I've discussed this with the
Development Manager at Morgan Cars, who still use Ash frames. They bolt the
upper point into the side part of the ash, with a plate behind. Whilst I
wouldn't dream of suggesting this for a TC as the side frame is completely
different, it works well on the Morgan. The ash framed body has, of course,
been impact tested at the Motor Industry Research Establishment near where I
live, and surprised the younger testers as it withstood the impact much
better than many modern vehicles Safety Fast! Steve Taylor "
===
"When I installed my 3 pt. belts, I recognized that all I might be able to do
was to soften the blow somewhat and to keep me in the car. With that in
mind, I attached the down piece of the longer belt (the door side) to the
drivers side rear corner floorboard bolt that passes through the frame or the
support thats welded onto the frame. The upper end of that belt is held in
place between the wing nut (bolt) and the seat back adjuster bracket. This
is the waekest point in the beal attachment scheme. I figure in a real bad
crash that bracket will rip out of the wheel arch, but it might slow down my
forward motion a lot. The other belt (tye one with the clasp on the end. I
mounted between the other drivers side rear corner floorboard bolt and the
floorboard. ( That bolt also passes through a steel support for the
floorboard. Repeat the process for the passenger's side. Not perfect but it
works ok. Best of all on really rought and potholed or bumpy roads the
shoulder belt keeps my butt in one place on the seat. Now, I am 5'5' and the
shoulder belt does not arch over my shoulder very much. If I were 6', I
don't know how that would feel, but it's better than nothing. On another
note do not forget to use a lanyard between the underdash and the door lock
handle. Last year on the way to GoF West, my wife did not get her door
completely latched and we went off with her door in the safety catch notch.
About 60 or 65 mph and a good bump and her door flew open, caught a good
amount of air and swung all the way back onto the fender (bending the door
check rod and pulling a little sheet metal around the door check hole with
it!. We always hook up the rawhide sling to the inside door handles, now!
David P Norris wrote: > Those of you who have fitted lap belts to your
T-types - where exactly did you attach them to the car? > Is it possible to
safely fit three-point belts without having a roll-over bar to which to
attach the shoulder strap? > Thanks in advance, > Dave > TC9964 > Aberdeen "
===
you can find an exact imaged documentation on that in the book: "
The complete MG TD" (!) restoration manual by Horst Schach
pg. 153 and on i would suggest in that parts the TC and TD is similar
regards walter David P Norris wrote: > > Those of you who have
fitted lap belts to your T-types - where exactly did you attach them to the
car? > Is it possible to safely fit three-point belts without having a
roll-over bar to which to attach the shoulder strap? > Thanks in advance, >
Dave > TC9964 > Aberdeen --"
===Hope this helps -- Jim Shade, West Covina CA
-
Geoffrey WHEATLEY
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 1999 8:38 am
Re: Seat belts
You will need to place some steel plates under the ply floor and then
fix the belts through the plates. not ideal but it helps if you hit
anything at 70 mph!
To my knowledge, and I am sure that you will get advise contrary to
mine, there is no solid location on a TC for belts. Another
solution is to drive the car with out the wife ...this can often solve
such problems!
Regards Geoff
fix the belts through the plates. not ideal but it helps if you hit
anything at 70 mph!
To my knowledge, and I am sure that you will get advise contrary to
mine, there is no solid location on a TC for belts. Another
solution is to drive the car with out the wife ...this can often solve
such problems!
Regards Geoff
-
AndyJ
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:45 pm
Re: Seat belts
Hello, Ken. I put 3 point belts in the TC when I replaced the floorboards.
There are 2 floor bolts that hold down the rear corners of each floorboard.
They run through the metal sprits that run off of the frame. If memory
serves, the inboard ones also run through the rear holes for the propeller
shaft tunnel. I sandwiched the metal ends of the latch (female) to the
inboard bolt and belt and one end of the the insert tab belt (male) to the
outboard one. You can back up those bolts with wide washers beneath the
floor to spread out the load on them. The other end of the tab insert belt
is attached to the seat back positioning bracket (sandwiched between the
wing bolt and the convex washer. This way, the convex washer of the seat
back positioner can be placed so it presses into the d tentes just like
before. So the order of items from out-to-in is: mounting bracket, seat
positioner, convex washer, seat belt end, and then the wing bolt. The wing
bolt fits right through the seat belt end. Now I realize that the seat
positioner bracket is welded to the wheel arch and that metal is pretty thin
and the weld could give way, but I figure it will slow me down enough to hit
the facia and windscreen much more slowly than if unbelted. Another benefit
is that the belt comes off of the seat back positioner mounting at seat back
height, so it comes neatly through the tonneau/seat back corner and looks
pretty neat.
Just one man's solution to the worries of finding my chest permanently
embossed with the MG logo from the Brooklands steering wheel hub....or
worse. It may not surely save me but it might and it provides some peace of
mind. While we're at it don't forget to thong (lanyard) your door latch
handles to the under/behind facia cross bar. Had a door fly open at 60 MPH
once. Good thing the wife was belted in then.
KENNETH PORTER wrote:
There are 2 floor bolts that hold down the rear corners of each floorboard.
They run through the metal sprits that run off of the frame. If memory
serves, the inboard ones also run through the rear holes for the propeller
shaft tunnel. I sandwiched the metal ends of the latch (female) to the
inboard bolt and belt and one end of the the insert tab belt (male) to the
outboard one. You can back up those bolts with wide washers beneath the
floor to spread out the load on them. The other end of the tab insert belt
is attached to the seat back positioning bracket (sandwiched between the
wing bolt and the convex washer. This way, the convex washer of the seat
back positioner can be placed so it presses into the d tentes just like
before. So the order of items from out-to-in is: mounting bracket, seat
positioner, convex washer, seat belt end, and then the wing bolt. The wing
bolt fits right through the seat belt end. Now I realize that the seat
positioner bracket is welded to the wheel arch and that metal is pretty thin
and the weld could give way, but I figure it will slow me down enough to hit
the facia and windscreen much more slowly than if unbelted. Another benefit
is that the belt comes off of the seat back positioner mounting at seat back
height, so it comes neatly through the tonneau/seat back corner and looks
pretty neat.
Just one man's solution to the worries of finding my chest permanently
embossed with the MG logo from the Brooklands steering wheel hub....or
worse. It may not surely save me but it might and it provides some peace of
mind. While we're at it don't forget to thong (lanyard) your door latch
handles to the under/behind facia cross bar. Had a door fly open at 60 MPH
once. Good thing the wife was belted in then.
KENNETH PORTER wrote:
> Hi All:
> I would like to put seat belts in my TC. Have any of you done so and if
> so can you give me some ideas on attachment points etc. I know it's not
> original and I really don't want to do it but my wife is very
> uncomfortable riding in the car without a seatbelt. Any help is greatly
> appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Ken TC 4147
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
> -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/mg-tabc/?m=1
-
Skip Burns
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 9:26 am
Seat Belts
Ken, Syd Saperstein's three-belt setup is surely better than mine. I
installed Moss Racing Seat Belts (2 belt)on both seats, drilling through
and fitting the attaching bolts to the underside of the floorboard
using very wide washers to spread the load. As I recall, on one side,
I had to drill through the metal frame under the floorboard. When
driving alone, I keep the other seat belt cinched up tight, the idea
being that if I have a roll-over, I can grab that belt and pull my-
self down into the seat. I'm dreaming, of course. Let's face it,
nothing we do to these cars (except for roll bars)is going to keep
our heads on in a serious roll over. Safety Fast! Cheers, Skip
installed Moss Racing Seat Belts (2 belt)on both seats, drilling through
and fitting the attaching bolts to the underside of the floorboard
using very wide washers to spread the load. As I recall, on one side,
I had to drill through the metal frame under the floorboard. When
driving alone, I keep the other seat belt cinched up tight, the idea
being that if I have a roll-over, I can grab that belt and pull my-
self down into the seat. I'm dreaming, of course. Let's face it,
nothing we do to these cars (except for roll bars)is going to keep
our heads on in a serious roll over. Safety Fast! Cheers, Skip
-
Peter Pleitner
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:53 am
Seat belts
Hi Whitworth Heads,
So far I've been regarding my TC like a motorcycle with training wheels, so
no belts. And in the past I've also jokingly suggested someone should
design an air bag adaptation for our seat cushions. But more seriously now,
I seem to recall a clever means for anchoring belts in a TC which was
illustrated in the TSO quite a few years ago. The concern of the author was
that the optimum position of lap belt anchors were not in a strong location.
I can appreciate this because a good friend is an automotive safety engineer
who has warned about not compromising on bad anchor locations which have
been demonstrated many times to cause severe injury. The author's solution
was to reinforce lap belt anchor points with a taught and short length of
chain below the floor and anchored to the frame. Also during a previous
discussion on this list on the subject of shoulder belts without a roll bar,
many seemed to like the idea of anchoring shoulder belts to the top of the
gas tank strap bolts from the inside, necessitating two additional
reinforced openings through the toneau cover, similar to those for rear side
curtains. Has anyone done this?
Cheers, Peter
PS. I've been quiet lately because my TC is hibernating, I've been more
busy than I like, and the recent carping about the fine points of
commercialism on this list got out of control.
So far I've been regarding my TC like a motorcycle with training wheels, so
no belts. And in the past I've also jokingly suggested someone should
design an air bag adaptation for our seat cushions. But more seriously now,
I seem to recall a clever means for anchoring belts in a TC which was
illustrated in the TSO quite a few years ago. The concern of the author was
that the optimum position of lap belt anchors were not in a strong location.
I can appreciate this because a good friend is an automotive safety engineer
who has warned about not compromising on bad anchor locations which have
been demonstrated many times to cause severe injury. The author's solution
was to reinforce lap belt anchor points with a taught and short length of
chain below the floor and anchored to the frame. Also during a previous
discussion on this list on the subject of shoulder belts without a roll bar,
many seemed to like the idea of anchoring shoulder belts to the top of the
gas tank strap bolts from the inside, necessitating two additional
reinforced openings through the toneau cover, similar to those for rear side
curtains. Has anyone done this?
Cheers, Peter
PS. I've been quiet lately because my TC is hibernating, I've been more
busy than I like, and the recent carping about the fine points of
commercialism on this list got out of control.
-
David P Norris
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 9:40 am
Re: Seat belts
Folks,
Jim reproduced my original request for info on seat belts, from some time back. Just to throw in my two penn'orth on the topic:
1. Outer lap belt positioning - attach to chassis via body mounting as others have suggested
2. Inner lap belt mounting - this is more problematic...People have suggested attaching to the floor mount/tranny tunnel mount.
RANT ON: In my opinion this is suicidal. You are attaching to a thin bracket welded onto the chassis cross member. The bracket and weld were never designed to take any tensile forces. There's no way they'll hold in an accident. I've seen the article from the TD restoration book and I personally think it's criminally negligent to publish that sort of advice.
RANT OFF
Having looked at this for a while I came up with another design which utilises the cross member. I made a 'cradle' which fits under the cross member. Two brackets are welded to the cradle (one for each belt). These are 'U'-shaped and the 'legs' come up either side of the cross member. Upper brackets (to which the seat belt is attached and shaped like the ones in the TD manual ) come down to meet cross member and are bolted to the lower brackets. I have a sketch of all this which probably makes far more sense than my description. I'll pass it onto the group when I get it scanned. In the meantime I can fax a copy to anyone wanting to see it (let me have your number). The advantage of the design is that there are no welds in tension, and the 'cradle' serves to spread the load across the chassis cross member, rather than concentrating it into one spot (note this design wont work for the TD/TF as the cross member is a different shape).
3. Shoulder belt mounting - another knotty problem.
RANT ON: The inner wing panel is pinned (that's all) to the bodywork. Any real force on this will simply pull the panel off, so reinforcing the mounting point with large washers is beside the point. It may give you a sense of security, but believe me it's false. I'm guessing the other suggestion of mounting to the back via the tank bolts is similarly ineffective.
RANT OFF
My suggestion is to fit a sort of mini rollover bar, the top of which is at the height of the tonneau cover. It's not there to provide rollover protection, but to give a secure mounting point for the shoulder belt. At that height it's invisible with the tonneau cover on. It's slightly lower than ideal, but not far off it. Haven't made it yet - too many demands on my time keep stopping me from getting to my metalwork class!
Hope I haven't offended anyone with my comments, but I really feel strongly that if you are going to fit seat belts, it's utterly pointless they're really going to do the job. Of course we don't have the option of crash-testing. People may say 'it works for me', but I don't think they can really say that. What I'm suggesting is that we apply a few engineering principles to the matter in hand.
Drive safely.
Cheers,
Dave
Aberdeen
TC9964
Jim reproduced my original request for info on seat belts, from some time back. Just to throw in my two penn'orth on the topic:
1. Outer lap belt positioning - attach to chassis via body mounting as others have suggested
2. Inner lap belt mounting - this is more problematic...People have suggested attaching to the floor mount/tranny tunnel mount.
RANT ON: In my opinion this is suicidal. You are attaching to a thin bracket welded onto the chassis cross member. The bracket and weld were never designed to take any tensile forces. There's no way they'll hold in an accident. I've seen the article from the TD restoration book and I personally think it's criminally negligent to publish that sort of advice.
RANT OFF
Having looked at this for a while I came up with another design which utilises the cross member. I made a 'cradle' which fits under the cross member. Two brackets are welded to the cradle (one for each belt). These are 'U'-shaped and the 'legs' come up either side of the cross member. Upper brackets (to which the seat belt is attached and shaped like the ones in the TD manual ) come down to meet cross member and are bolted to the lower brackets. I have a sketch of all this which probably makes far more sense than my description. I'll pass it onto the group when I get it scanned. In the meantime I can fax a copy to anyone wanting to see it (let me have your number). The advantage of the design is that there are no welds in tension, and the 'cradle' serves to spread the load across the chassis cross member, rather than concentrating it into one spot (note this design wont work for the TD/TF as the cross member is a different shape).
3. Shoulder belt mounting - another knotty problem.
RANT ON: The inner wing panel is pinned (that's all) to the bodywork. Any real force on this will simply pull the panel off, so reinforcing the mounting point with large washers is beside the point. It may give you a sense of security, but believe me it's false. I'm guessing the other suggestion of mounting to the back via the tank bolts is similarly ineffective.
RANT OFF
My suggestion is to fit a sort of mini rollover bar, the top of which is at the height of the tonneau cover. It's not there to provide rollover protection, but to give a secure mounting point for the shoulder belt. At that height it's invisible with the tonneau cover on. It's slightly lower than ideal, but not far off it. Haven't made it yet - too many demands on my time keep stopping me from getting to my metalwork class!
Hope I haven't offended anyone with my comments, but I really feel strongly that if you are going to fit seat belts, it's utterly pointless they're really going to do the job. Of course we don't have the option of crash-testing. People may say 'it works for me', but I don't think they can really say that. What I'm suggesting is that we apply a few engineering principles to the matter in hand.
Drive safely.
Cheers,
Dave
Aberdeen
TC9964
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Frank O_ The Mountain
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:02 pm
Re: Seat belts
In a message dated 99-12-01 12:46:43 EST, dpnorris@marathonoil.com writes:
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Bill Harkins
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 1999 1:31 pm
Re: Seat belts
I absolutely agree with you that anything is better than nothing. I'm still unhappy with the centre lap belt mounting though. I'll throw my $0.02 on this one. When I was in school and bought my 1950 TD (in '52), I was one of the first in the state of Rhode Island to have seat belts at all. The conventional wisdom was that "you want to be thrown clear of the car" (I'm not kidding). However, the midget racers and stock car drivers used seat belts. I bolted the belt fastening points through the floorboards to a chain passing under the frame rail. This formed a loop that was at least as strong as the belt and the links of the chain - no dependence on the floorboard mounting. I must admit that I have not done this on recent cars, going with the weak solution of through the floorboard with a big washer. 'If we were really to look at these cars from an engineering point of view safety wise, we'd park them and not drive them at all!!' - hey, I was going to say that! Fully agree, particularly on SoCal freeways which have 80mph average speeds! Bill Harkins Fallbrook, CA
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