Steering Box Oil Seal

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david469463
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat May 21, 2016 3:14 am

Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by david469463 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:51 am

Attachments :
    [*][url=file:///C:\Users\Steve\AppData\Local\PG Offline 4\Attachments\\BCbox.JPG]BCbox.JPG[/url]
The Bishop Cam steering box on TC4985 has leaked oil since I ve owned the car, some 3 years now. So I keep it topped up with EP140 (GL4). I ve taken off the drop arm in the past to crack test it, but I thought it was time to replace the oil seal. However, when I removed the sector shaft I found that there was no rebate in the box for an oil seal. The sector shaft is running in two bushes that look very much like king pin bushes, since they have a hole in the middle and a spiral groove. With the drop arm fitted, but without the top plate, the sector shaft moves up and down a millimetre or two, perhaps room enough for a felt washer, although I suspect that would not last long. Any suggestions for solving this problem without having a rebate cut in the box? David James TC4985 West Sussex, UK
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Barry Cook
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:39 pm

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by Barry Cook » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:00 pm

McMastercarr has a lip seal that may do the job?  Go to Mcmastercarr and enter 5154T56 (item number).Also, I believe none of our suppliers in the states have the brass sleeve for the sector shaft.  If worn, check out the following 3" bronze sleeve bearings also from Mcmastercarr.-    6391K11    is  Porous Bronze-    2868T174  is  Iron and Bronze mix-    6381K11    is  Lead and Bronze mixNOTE:  Which would be the best alloy sleeve bearing for this application?  I am not sure?  Any Ideas? Barry Cook On Monday, October 22, 2018 8:27 AM, "'Doug Pelton' doug@fromtheframeup.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hi David,  Probably are King Pin bushings as they have same ID, .  To seal the bottom with a modern lip seal you will have to have it machined to accept seal.  Regards,  [b][i]Doug Pelton,[/i][/b] Proprietor  [b][i]NOTE:  New Address[/i][/b]From The Frame Up3030 S. 40th St., Suite 5Phoenix, AZ  85040  480-588-8185For Fastest Service:  order@fromtheframeup.comLike us on FACEBOOK! See us on YouTUBE!  www.FromTheFrameUp.com  [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]On Behalf Of [/b]dr.david.james@gmail.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Saturday, October 20, 2018 9:45 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal [1 Attachment]    The Bishop Cam steering box on TC4985 has leaked oil since I ve owned the car, some 3 years now. So I keep it topped up with EP140 (GL4). I ve taken off the drop arm in the past to crack test it, but I thought it was time to replace the oil seal. However, when I removed the sector shaft I found that there was no rebate in the box for an oil seal. The sector shaft is running in two bushes that look very much like king pin bushes, since they have a hole in the middle and a spiral groove. With the drop arm fitted, but without the top plate, the sector shaft moves up and down a millimetre or two, perhaps room enough for a felt washer, although I suspect that would not last long. Any suggestions for solving this problem without having a rebate cut in the box?  David JamesTC4985West Sussex, UK #ygrps-yiv-1793614434 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246 -- #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1793614434 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1793614434 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1793614434 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1793614434 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246 #ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1793614434yiv5396819246ad { padding:0 0;} 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Barry Cook
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:39 pm

Fw: [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by Barry Cook » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:15 pm

  McMastercarr has a lip seal that may do the job?  Go to Mcmastercarr and enter 5154T56 (item number).Also, I believe none of our british car suppliers in the states have the brass sleeve for the sector shaft.  If worn, check out the following 3" bronze sleeve bearings also from Mcmastercarr.-    6391K11    is  Porous Bronze-    2868T174  is  Iron and Bronze mix-    6381K11    is  Lead and Bronze mixNOTE:  Which would be the best alloy sleeve bearing for this application?  I am not sure?  Any Ideas? Barry Cook SPONSORED LINKS [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =209917096[/img] [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =379774717[/img] [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =439718245[/img] . [img]http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/gr ... c2=2/nc3=3[/img] [img]http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywa ... IC&cf12=CP[/img] #ygrps-yiv-1072502393 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731 -- #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1072502393 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1072502393 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1072502393 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1072502393 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1072502393 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731 #ygrps-yiv-1072502393yiv6694568731ygrp-mkp 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Bill Hyatt
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:23 am

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by Bill Hyatt » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:35 am

To all, It occurred to me that fitting a leakproof lower seal to bottom of sector shaft box may not be a good choice.As the top of shaft is constantly abrading the underside of the top cover, and the shaft itself is wearing on the housings, peg wear, front & rear bearings/race wear lots of minuscule swarf is generated which contaminates the box lube, & escalates wear on shaft & its housing. If the box leaked minor amounts lube over time, the effect would be a tendency to be self cleaning as replacement lube was added to top off. Clean lube provides better wear protection than contaminated lube when there is not a means to easily flush contaminated lube -Bill HyattTC 4926Odessa, Fl.Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 3, 2018, at 10:15 PM, Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
    McMastercarr has a lip seal that may do the job?  Go to Mcmastercarr and enter 5154T56 (item number).Also, I believe none of our british car suppliers in the states have the brass sleeve for the sector shaft.  If worn, check out the following 3" bronze sleeve bearings also from Mcmastercarr.-    6391K11    is  Porous Bronze-    2868T174  is  Iron and Bronze mix-    6381K11    is  Lead and Bronze mixNOTE:  Which would be the best alloy sleeve bearing for this application?  I am not sure?  Any Ideas? Barry Cook SPONSORED LINKS [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =209917096[/img] [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =379774717[/img] [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =439718245[/img] . [img]http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/gr ... c2=2/nc3=3[/img] [img]http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywa ... IC&cf12=CP[/img]
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n.truck
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 5:07 pm

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by n.truck » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:31 am

Lucky me. My whole car is "self lubricating."
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Roger Furneaux
Posts: 292
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 4:38 pm

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by Roger Furneaux » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:50 am

I have a few bushes, they are similar to king-pin bushes but longer. Bill, I like your theory! The BC box top plate has a "grease" nipple in one bolt, which must have led many POs to squirt grease in, not realising that it should be 140 grade OIL. Many a steering box must have been worn out by POs never putting anything in! TC0978 has a TA box with an oil level hole (closed by a sliding cover) at the bottom of the outer tube to ensure plenty of oil (but not too much). My question is: do only TAs have this, or TCs too? oc[b]T[/b]agonally Roger
On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:31 PM n.truck@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u] Lucky me. My whole car is "self lubricating."
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Duncan
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:04 pm

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by Duncan » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:19 pm

Of course the original TC BC box did not have any sort of sleeve or bronze bushing for the sector shaft.   Barry lists a porous bronze bushing that might be helpful to capture migrating swarf. Duncan M'KellarN CalfironiaTC9866 [b]From:[/b] "Bill Hyatt usaj24@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com> [b]Cc:[/b] MG-TABC List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Sunday, November 4, 2018 8:41 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal   To all, It occurred to me that fitting a leakproof lower seal to bottom of sector shaft box may not be a good choice.As the top of shaft is constantly abrading the underside of the top cover, and the shaft itself is wearing on the housings, peg wear, front & rear bearings/race wear lots of minuscule swarf is generated which contaminates the box lube, & escalates wear on shaft & its housing. If the box leaked minor amounts lube over time, the effect would be a tendency to be self cleaning as replacement lube was added to top off. Clean lube provides better wear protection than contaminated lube when there is not a means to easily flush contaminated lube -Bill HyattTC 4926Odessa, Fl.Sent from my iPhone On Nov 3, 2018, at 10:15 PM, Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
    McMastercarr has a lip seal that may do the job?  Go to Mcmastercarr and enter 5154T56 (item number).Also, I believe none of our british car suppliers in the states have the brass sleeve for the sector shaft.  If worn, check out the following 3" bronze sleeve bearings also from Mcmastercarr.-    6391K11    is  Porous Bronze-    2868T174  is  Iron and Bronze mix-    6381K11    is  Lead and Bronze mixNOTE:  Which would be the best alloy sleeve bearing for this application?  I am not sure?  Any Ideas? Barry Cook SPONSORED LINKS [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =209917096[/img] [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =379774717[/img] [img]http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=#26/D= ... =439718245[/img] . [img]http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/gr ... c2=2/nc3=3[/img] [img]http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywa ... IC&cf12=CP[/img]
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Barry Cook
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:39 pm

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by Barry Cook » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:51 pm

How strange, maybe?  As we speak I have both of my TC's steering columns/housing on the bench and both have brass or bronze sleeves.  They both have the hole internally to feed the walls oil.  They are both about 2,831 cars apart during orignial production. One I purchased in New York City 45 years ago, the other San Francisco.  My guess is that the brass/bronze sleeve was most likely a factory standard and not steel, though I cannot speak on behalf of all 10,000 TC's.  Possibly no sleeves were used on the earliest models, or none on the late ones when the bean counters said we could save a few pence. Second thought, maybe it would make sense?  Bearings are usually steel rubbing against steel, so a sector shaft rubbing against a steel housing wall would seem to be the same as any other bearing?  The only real difference, and a plus, is having a bronze sleeve would retain the oil better. Barry Cook   On Sunday, November 4, 2018 9:07 AM, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com> wrote: Cannot tell from you post, Barry, if you are aware that there originally was no brass sleeve or bushing installed in the BC housing for the sector shaft?  I know of one TC that is driven weekly that still has the original BC unit with no sleeve, and no leak.  It does have the modern lip seal fitted. [b]From:[/b] "Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: Doug Pelton doug@fromtheframeup.com>; "dr.david.james@gmail.com" dr.david.james@gmail.com>; "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Saturday, November 3, 2018 7:00 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal   McMastercarr has a lip seal that may do the job?  Go to Mcmastercarr and enter 5154T56 (item number).Also, I believe none of our suppliers in the states have the brass sleeve for the sector shaft.  If worn, check out the following 3" bronze sleeve bearings also from Mcmastercarr.-    6391K11    is  Porous Bronze-    2868T174  is  Iron and Bronze mix-    6381K11    is  Lead and Bronze mixNOTE:  Which would be the best alloy sleeve bearing for this application?  I am not sure?  Any Ideas? Barry Cook On Monday, October 22, 2018 8:27 AM, "'Doug Pelton' doug@fromtheframeup.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hi David,  Probably are King Pin bushings as they have same ID, .  To seal the bottom with a modern lip seal you will have to have it machined to accept seal.  Regards,  [b][i]Doug Pelton,[/i][/b] Proprietor  [b][i]NOTE:  New Address[/i][/b]From The Frame Up3030 S. 40th St., Suite 5Phoenix, AZ  85040  480-588-8185For Fastest Service:  order@fromtheframeup.comLike us on FACEBOOK! See us on YouTUBE!  www.FromTheFrameUp.com  [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]On Behalf Of [/b]dr.david.james@gmail..com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Saturday, October 20, 2018 9:45 AM [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Steering Box Oil Seal [1 Attachment]    The Bishop Cam steering box on TC4985 has leaked oil since I ve owned the car, some 3 years now. So I keep it topped up with EP140 (GL4). I ve taken off the drop arm in the past to crack test it, but I thought it was time to replace the oil seal. However, when I removed the sector shaft I found that there was no rebate in the box for an oil seal. The sector shaft is running in two bushes that look very much like king pin bushes, since they have a hole in the middle and a spiral groove. With the drop arm fitted, but without the top plate, the sector shaft moves up and down a millimetre or two, perhaps room enough for a felt washer, although I suspect that would not last long. Any suggestions for solving this problem without having a rebate cut in the box?  David JamesTC4985West Sussex, UK #ygrps-yiv-911250509 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439 -- #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-911250509 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-911250509 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-911250509 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-911250509 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-911250509 #ygrps-yiv-911250509yiv7415449439 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eworpe
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:27 am

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by eworpe » Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:48 pm

Hi Barry, I doubt if Bishops Cam steering boxes were originally bushed as they were produced as cheaply as possible, their main selling point. The box itself is probably made from malleable cast iron, which is stronger than cast iron but still contains sufficient graphite to act as an effective self-lubricant. A hardened steel shaft would be most suited to running in malleable cast iron; however, this is not possible when the shaft is required to be tough and fatigue resistant. The sector shaft is therefore not hard enough to enable good bearing surfaces to be achieved. That some Bishops Cam boxes have lasted so well is testament to regular topping up with EP 140 oil, the idea of omitting an oil seal at the end of the sector shaft housing is intriguing and could only be considered if regular topping up with oil was guaranteed. So Baldrick, perhaps not such a cunning plan. Leaded bronze bushes as used for kingpins would be a good bearing surface for the less than hard sector shaft; however, the top bush needs to be longer than the standard 1 inch kingpin bush. The use of Roger's longer bushes allows the top bush to bridge the aperture in the bearing housing formed by the relief needed to clear the worm cam. Regards, Eric. ________________________________________ From: Barry Cook barryc8950@yahoo.com How strange, maybe? As we speak I have both of my TC's steering columns/housing on the bench and both have brass or bronze sleeves. They both have the hole internally to feed the walls oil. They are both about 2,831 cars apart during orignial production. One I purchased in New York City 45 years ago, the other San Francisco. My guess is that the brass/bronze sleeve was most likely a factory standard and not steel, though I cannot speak on behalf of all 10,000 TC's. Possibly no sleeves were used on the earliest models, or none on the late ones when the bean counters said we could save a few pence. Second thought, maybe it would make sense? Bearings are usually steel rubbing against steel, so a sector shaft rubbing against a steel housing wall would seem to be the same as any other bearing? The only real difference, and a plus, is having a bronze sleeve would retain the oil better.
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Clive Sherriff
Posts: 142
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:11 pm

Re: Steering Box Oil Seal

Post by Clive Sherriff » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:10 pm

Roger, No. CliveOxford UKm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm [img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=https%3A%2F%2Fipmcdn.avast.com%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif&t=1542957674&sig=u8HjWCNBOiA1MJ6HagPZOA--~D[/img] Virus-free. www.avast.com
On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 19:50, Roger Furneaux roger.46tc@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u] I have a few bushes, they are similar to king-pin bushes but longer. Bill, I like your theory! The BC box top plate has a "grease" nipple in one bolt, which must have led many POs to squirt grease in, not realising that it should be 140 grade OIL. Many a steering box must have been worn out by POs never putting anything in! TC0978 has a TA box with an oil level hole (closed by a sliding cover) at the bottom of the outer tube to ensure plenty of oil (but not too much). My question is: do only TAs have this, or TCs too? oc[b]T[/b]agonally Roger On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 7:31 PM n.truck@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u]

Lucky me. My whole car is "self lubricating."

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