Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)

[Tweed]

I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.     

I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the 

replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. 

  

Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. 

 

Probably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   

While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.  

Or am I talking out of the top of my head? 

Tweed. 

  

[Duncan]

There was the Mike James article you mention, and in a later issue there was a brief follow-up to it by Dieter Wagner. Maybe between the two it can answer your question about the difference between your old VW drop arm and the one that came with your newest VW conversion? Here: http://ttypes.org/ttt2/?s=VW+steering+conversions+&submit=Search Mike James article is at top of page, and Wagner reply with picture is second or third below it (just under the poly bushing pics). Duncan- TC9866 --------------------------------------------

On Sun, 8/13/17, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) To: "MG-TABC List" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, August 13, 2017, 6:24 PM I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious. I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'. Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. Probably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that. While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box. Or am I talking out of the top of my head? Tweed. Posted by: Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Have you tried the highest rated email app? With 4.5 stars in iTunes, the Yahoo Mail app is the highest rated email app on the market. What are you waiting for? Now you can access all your inboxes (Gmail, Outlook, AOL and more) in one place. Never delete an email again with 1000GB of free cloud storage. Visit Your Group New Photos 1 Privacy Unsubscribe Terms of Use .

[Usaj24@earthlink.net]

Tweed,No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. BillTC 4926 Sent from my iPad

On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.   Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.  Probably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    

[Stephen D Stierman]

Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before.I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] "'Usaj24@earthlink.net' usaj24@earthlink.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk> [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   Tweed,No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.  Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z.Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product.Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. BillTC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.   Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.  Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.   While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    

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[Clive P Sherriff]

And some indication that our suppliers have a slight at least, appreciation of what Quality Control and pre sales sample testing actually means, and might one day decide to try it would be reassuring too !   T many just offload what they are sent and rely on us buyers to find all the poor production problems !   Clive   Mm Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm    

----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] 'Usaj24@earthlink.net' usaj24@earthlink.net [mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 2:27 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  

I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Probably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    

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[Steve S]

All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed. A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into. I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them! We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece. If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

Safety?! Give me a break here. It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper. Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight. Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product. We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer. By simply driving these vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] 'Usaj24@earthlink.net'usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once) Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures. Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious. I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original. Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'. Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below. Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that. While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box. Or am I talking out of the top of my head? Tweed.

[dandmgman]

Group, Re: Steering options - My humble suggestion:  If you're trying to decide which option you want to do, try to arrange a drive in a car equipped with the steering you are considering. If you would like to try a VW box and if you're in San Diego (and ol' 5122 is running - definitely not today!), give me a call and we'll take a little drive. You're welcome to drive as long as you don't comment on my carb tuning. We are never going to agree on the merits of original vs. modified. Dan Harmer 619-540-7090 '48 TC # 5122 San Diego, CA -----Original Message----- From: Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: MG-TABC List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Aug 13, 2017 6:25 pm Subject: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Probably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.     #ygrps-yiv-252465144 #ygrps-yiv-252465144AOLMsgPart_2_1db1d9b1-3b3c-4f2c-815c-f926054e6b6b td{color:black;}#ygrps-yiv-252465144 .ygrps-yiv-252465144aolReplacedBody #ygrps-yiv-252465144aolmail_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 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[Roger Bateman]

I have an Andy King VW conversion which has a bespoke drop arm, not a modified VW item.  It can only be fitted on the output spindle in one position, and incidentally the drag link ball is underneath and the nut above.

Whilst on the subject of VW boxes, I don't think I have ever seen a reference to how to adjust them on MG sites.  I also have a '71 VW Type 2 campervan and so I looked in my workshop manual to see how the box should be adjusted and was surprised to find that it is done with the steering wheel turned 180 degrees from the centre position.

The sequence is:

1. Disconnect drag link.

2. Find steering centre position.

3. Turn steering wheel 180 degrees to either right or left.

4. Slacken adjuster lock nut.

5. Turn adjuster screw with one hand whilst feeling for play in the drop arm with the other.

6. When all play is removed, tighten lock nut and reassemble drag link.

  Forgive me if I have missed it if it is already on this forum, but I  thought it worth mentioning. It worked for me!

Roger Bateman

TC2456

Roger Bateman 

[Stephen D Stierman]

So you feel confident in those original drop arms and front spindles?You do remember a previous member selling VW steering conversions advising us how much better the VDub drop arms were than the OEM item on a regular basis?  I still have all that original stuff on my car out of choice, but I have to say I really would feel safer using current VW items given the current manufacturing technology no matter where they were made if I decided to go in that direction.Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 1:15 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm! - Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 8/14/2017 9:57 AM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

  Safety?! Give me a break here.  It is a 70 year old car made of wood with a steel tube pointed at the drivers chest and a fuel tank as a rear bumper.  Lighting barely visible after dark, a chassis known to develop stress cracks, rear axles known to break, front spindles that crack and a crank shaft that sometimes breaks across a counter weight.  Made of materials scrounged after a war built with technology from well before. I am sorry I just cannot worry too much about the quality and traceability in manufacturing from raw material to end product.  We are lucky we can still get parts and keep these old crocks on the road for awhile longer.  By simply driving these  vehicles you are assuming a great deal of risk and if this is a big problem, maybe time to choose a different hobby. Steve TC2911, driving a car as old as I am. [b]From:[/b] 'Usaj24@earthlink.net'usaj24@earthlink.net[mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, August 14, 2017 9:27 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Drop arms. ( Sorry if this appears more than once)   Tweed, No worries, there can never be enough discussion about how or why things break, and preventive measures.   Personally I tend to worry more about fitting aftermarket critical parts with unknown QC issues. However this line of thinking should be more relevant today when NOS OEM  critical parts are becoming unobtanium, and who knows where today's parts are sourced and what level of QC they went through from A to Z. Those touting VALUE of items like OEM VW steering components  should be be promoting advantages they offer in the way of safety in the way of high levels of OEM QC (Quality  Control) and traceability in mfg. process from raw material to end product. Too many vintage critical parts are sourced from suppliers in third world countries based on cost, not degree of quality testing provided throughout mfg. supply chain. Bill TC 4926 Sent from my iPad On Aug 13, 2017, at 9:24 PM, Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I hope this does not kick off another debate on the merits or otherwise of the VW box over the BC, but after reading a very interesting article by a Mike James in John James' 'Totally T type' on aftermarket drop arms , I'm curious.      I'm in the process of replacing the busted VW steering box in 0632 and the drop or Pitman arm supplied with the  replacement is totally different to the one on the old unit. Both units are made by TWR, but the old drop arm is a VW original.     Not only is it shorter, but it does not have the same amount of 'offset'.  Also, the tapered hole to accept the rod end is  the other way up ... on the 'old' one, the rod end is mounted on the top and secured from below.    Pro! bably the biggest argument against changing from a BC box is the increased number of turns lock to lock, so having a shorter arm can only exasperate that.    While the use of a longer arm won't reduce the number of turns, it would make for less movement of the wheel to achieve the same amount of lock at the hub  .... so in effect, making for a slightly 'quicker' box.   Or am I talking out of the top of my head?  Tweed.    

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[Eugene F. Gillam]

I believe with suppliers like FTFU here in the USA that quality control is part and parcel of their buying process at least I hope it is. Gene GillamSaucier, MS

On Aug 14, 2017, at 12:09 PM, Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   All fair points, but I think the issue is with parts that could kill you if they failed.  A broken axle is a minor inconvenience, but a broken steering component can kill you and whoever you consequently run into.  I don't think anyone is in this hobby thinking that it's ok if it kills them!  We take a risk by driving a car with no modern safety equipment in place, but I think it's reasonable to expect that the steering system will remain in one piece.  If I drive myself off a cliff then ok, but I'd rather it be my mistake than a failed steering arm!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975