Front wheel bearings

[tonygoodall]

Hi Guys I have an 1/8th of an inch or so movement at 12 o clock/6 o clock on the offside front wheel, not kingpins, so assumed wheel bearings needed replacing. Did the job, bearings seemed a good fit on the spindle....no difference, still the same movement, it seems the bearings were ok. (traditional ball bearings) Then read Peter Pleitners account of new spindles, on the web site, and noted his reference to "not daring to apply 150 lbs to ball bearings." What is the torque that should be applied to the castellated nut and what if the hole for the split pin doesn't line up with a gap, plus, will increased torque make any difference to this wheel movement? I had assumed that although the bearings seemed a snug fit, there must be some wear on the spindle and was thinking of resorting to Loctite bearing mount but I'm not too keen on this as a solution. Observations will be gratefully received. Tony TC9825

[JTPAKI@aol.com]

Tony, The torque of 150 lbs is not applied to the race to the roller (balls), but to the base of bearing to the bearing distance tube. Shims along with the center distance tube set the end play. Joe Potter In a message dated 5/21/2001 3:01:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tonygoodall@blueyonder.co.uk writes:

Hi Guys I have an 1/8th of an inch or so movement at 12 o clock/6 o clock on the offside front wheel, not kingpins, so assumed wheel bearings needed replacing. Did the job, bearings seemed a good fit on the spindle....no difference, still the same movement, it seems the bearings were ok. (traditional ball bearings) Then read Peter Pleitners account of new spindles, on the web site, and noted his reference to "not daring to apply 150 lbs to ball bearings." What is the torque that should be applied to the castellated nut and what if the hole for the split pin doesn't line up with a gap, plus, will increased torque make any difference to this wheel movement? I had assumed that although the bearings seemed a snug fit, there must be some wear on the spindle and was thinking of resorting to Loctite bearing mount but I'm not too keen on this as a solution. Observations will be gratefully received. Tony TC9825

[Robert Johnson]

Tony: When I worked as a mechanic on cars of the immediate post war era, the following procedure was always used on ball-bearing equipped cars. Unlike tapered-roller bearings, you don't really "torque" them down as part of the adjustment procedure. If you look in Factory Shop Manuals for other British cars from that period which used ball bearings on the hubs (such as the Jaguar XK120 and Morris Minor), all direct you to tighten the castellated nut down snug enough to ensure that the bearings are seated all the way home. If it was necessary for me to estimate a torque number, in my experience I'd say no more than about 10 ft-lbs is quite adequate. You then back off the nut AT LEAST ONE FULL FLAT OF ROTATION regardless of where the gaps are in relation to the hole in the stub axle.. THEN KEEP LOOSENING A BIT MORE UNTIL THE NEXT GAP LINES UP. Put the split pin in, bend it over and your done. The end float will usually come out to be about .005" or thereabouts. Bob Johnson

[Frank O_ The Mountain]

In a message dated 5/21/01 3:01:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tonygoodall@blueyonder.co.uk writes: >>

[Frank O_ The Mountain]

In a message dated 5/21/01 3:01:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tonygoodall@blueyonder.co.uk writes: > BTW, don't use anything else....

[Chip Old]

Bob, the method you describe is suitable only for adjusting tapered roller bearings or ball bearings where no spacer tube is used between the inner races. In such assemblies the outer races are the fixed parts, and the inner races slide on the spindle. Adjustment is achieved by adjusting the tension (or lack thereof) on the inner races. The TA/B/C assembly uses a spacer tube between the inner races. The outer races are fixed, and the inner races are clamped tight against the distance tube so are also fixed. Correct adjustment is determined by the length of the spacer tube. The fact that the spacer tube and inner races are clamped together by the spindle nut also adds strength to the spindle. You don't get that if you use the loose adjustment method you described. You also don't get it if you substitute tapered roller bearings without a spacer tube, but that's another story. Someone mentioned applying 150 pount-feet of torque. I don't know where that came fropm, but it's excessive. The manual just says "good and tight" or something equally vague, but I would think 50 - 60 pount-feet would be about right given the spindle and thread dimensions..

On Tue, 22 May 2001, Robert Johnson wrote: > When I worked as a mechanic on cars of the immediate post war era, the > following procedure was always used on ball-bearing equipped cars. > Unlike tapered-roller bearings, you don't really "torque" them down as > part of the adjustment procedure. > > If you look in Factory Shop Manuals for other British cars from that > period which used ball bearings on the hubs (such as the Jaguar XK120 > and Morris Minor), all direct you to tighten the castellated nut down > snug enough to ensure that the bearings are seated all the way home. > If it was necessary for me to estimate a torque number, in my > experience I'd say no more than about 10 ft-lbs is quite adequate. You > then back off the nut AT LEAST ONE FULL FLAT OF ROTATION regardless of > where the gaps are in relation to the hole in the stub axle.. THEN > KEEP LOOSENING A BIT MORE UNTIL THE NEXT GAP LINES UP. Put the split > pin in, bend it over and your done. The end float will usually come > out to be about .005" or thereabouts. -- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, MD, USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E fold@bcpl.net

[Robert Johnson]

Chip: Thank you for clarifying that there is a spacer tube in TA/TB/TC cars which as you say, means that the procedure I outlined for many other British cars of that period with ball races which I have owned and serviced, does not in fact apply and should not be used for the TA/TB/TC cars. I've not had to do any front hub work yet on my TC and so I therefore also thank you for saving me a surprise someday when I do have to attend to them. Bob Johnson

[Chip Old]

On Mon, 21 May 2001, Bob Dobrenski wrote to Chip Old:

> If you change the front bearings to taper do you need the spacer.

Bob, you wrote me privately but I'm replying the the list. Hope you don't mind, but the whole idea of a mailing list like MG-TABC is to share information among the group. Opinions differ on whether or not to use a spacer tube in a tapered roller conversion. It used to be very common to install tapered roller bearings on the TC without using a spacer tube. This made adjustment very easy, along the lines of the method Bob Johnson described earlier tonight. There are still a lot of TCs around with a spacerless roller bearing setup. On the other hand there may be merit to the idea that the inner races clamped down tight against the spacer tube added strength to the original roller bearing setup. Consequently current thinking seems to be that you should still use a spacer tube with tapered roller bearings. In fact some cars originally equipped with tapered rollers also use spacers (for example MGA and MGB if I remember correctly). Now, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I have no idea how to calculate whether the spacer tube actually adds enough strength to the spindle to be worth the effort. However it just seems to me to make sense, so if I were to convert my TC to tapered rollers I would use a spacer. Trouble is, using a spacer makes adjusting the bearing very fiddley. You need to get the length of the spacer just the right to give the correct play in the bearings (barely perceptible movement out at the wheel rim). Maybe someone here who has done it can tell us how he accomplished that while managing to retain his sanity. In the mean time, I'll stick to the standard ball bearings. -- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, MD, USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E fold@bcpl.net

[DAI]

Dear all, Like others, I have been through the process of replacing the front stub axles, and have fitted Bob Grunau's stub axle insert replacements, and standard ball races with distance tubes and spacers, etc. I have read a variety of opinion on the torque settings in the last few hours; some at variance to what I have used. In the 'Technology folder' of the T-ABC website there is an detailed explanation by Peter Pleitner of the stub insert replacement, and a paragraph regarding the reason for the high torque setting, pasted here: "Important: This inner spacer and the 150 foot lbs. of torque, combine to add a vital structural component around our spindles. Bob Grunau caused my penny to drop and grasp its significance. This spacer, in combination with the inside races of the inner and outer bearing, and the high torque which puts the spindle under tension, effectively increase the diameter of the spindle, hence its strength." This is the set-up I have used. Regards, DAI --- Robert Johnson webmaster@consultantbob.com> wrote: > Chip:

> > Thank you for clarifying that there is a spacer tube > in TA/TB/TC cars which > as you say, means that the procedure I outlined for > many other British cars > of that period with ball races which I have owned > and serviced, does not in > fact apply and should not be used for the TA/TB/TC > cars. > > I've not had to do any front hub work yet on my TC > and so I therefore also > thank you for saving me a surprise someday when I do > have to attend to them. > > Bob Johnson >

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[Ray McCrary]

In order to properly setup the bearings, you need a depth gauge mounted on the hub. This is the only way to properly set up the clearance. And, BTW, don't leave out the spacer; you can get yourself killed. Best, Ray McCrary "Speed is Life; of course Luck and Altitude are helpful, too."

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chip Old" fold@bcpl.net> To: "MG-TABC" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Front wheel bearings > On Mon, 21 May 2001, Bob Dobrenski wrote to Chip Old: > > > If you change the front bearings to taper do you need the spacer. > > Bob, you wrote me privately but I'm replying the the list. Hope you don't > mind, but the whole idea of a mailing list like MG-TABC is to share > information among the group. > > Opinions differ on whether or not to use a spacer tube in a tapered roller > conversion. It used to be very common to install tapered roller bearings > on the TC without using a spacer tube. This made adjustment very easy, > along the lines of the method Bob Johnson described earlier tonight. > There are still a lot of TCs around with a spacerless roller bearing > setup. > > On the other hand there may be merit to the idea that the inner races > clamped down tight against the spacer tube added strength to the original > roller bearing setup. Consequently current thinking seems to be that you > should still use a spacer tube with tapered roller bearings. In fact some > cars originally equipped with tapered rollers also use spacers (for > example MGA and MGB if I remember correctly). > > Now, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I have no idea how to calculate > whether the spacer tube actually adds enough strength to the spindle to be > worth the effort. However it just seems to me to make sense, so if I were > to convert my TC to tapered rollers I would use a spacer. > > Trouble is, using a spacer makes adjusting the bearing very fiddley. You > need to get the length of the spacer just the right to give the correct > play in the bearings (barely perceptible movement out at the wheel rim). > Maybe someone here who has done it can tell us how he accomplished that > while managing to retain his sanity. > > In the mean time, I'll stick to the standard ball bearings. > > -- > Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 > Cub Hill, MD, USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E > fold@bcpl.net > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >