camp indian springs

[Jeff Saline]

KLR Listers, Two days ago I submitted an oil sample from my 2003 KLR650 for oil analysis. More below but here's the bottom line. I need to change my oil more often. Disclaimer: For those reading further everything below is mine and any errors, mistakes, improper interpretation etc is mine and only mine. If you are an oil guru I'd be happy to hear your constructive thoughts about what I'm presenting for your examination. This has been an eye opening experience for me. Again, all the mistakes that follow are by me and nobody else. I've got to thank Blake Sobiloff for his help in figuring out a bit about what the results mean. I know he's taken quite a bit of time to try to explain this to me. I also just spent 33 minutes on the phone with Scot, the lab analyst that did the testing. His insight to the results and his best guesses as to what's going on were very helpful. Here's some background. The bike is a 2003 KLR650 with 15,013 miles on it. Oil is Valvoline 10W-40, API rating SL. This oil change interval (OCI) was 1,733 miles and the filter is by Emgo and has 4,696 miles on it. I was not using a magnetic drain plug. I had new oil sampled as well as the used oil. The new oil only gives a thumbprint of the used oil. The only way to really figure out what is happening with the oil and engine is to establish a trend by further oil sampling. Remember that! The only way to really figure out what is happening with the oil and engine is to establish a trend by further oil sampling. Here is the SOS (Schedule Oil Sampling) Fluids Analysis. Below I'll provide what I hope is correct and useful. Element | Virgin | This OCI (Oil Change Interval) Cu 0 9 Copper Fe 1 14 Iron Cr 0 0 Chrome Ni 0 0 Nickel Ti 0 0 Titan V 0 0 Vanad Ag 0 0 Silver Pb 0 2 Lead Sn 1 0 Tin Al 0 15 Aluminum Si 1 4 Silicon Na 5 2 Sodium K 0 1 Potassium Mo 1 7 Moly B 2 11 Boron Ba 0 0 Barium Ca 1925 2027 Calcium Mg 10 12 Magnesium Mn 0 0 Mangan?? P 860 723 Phosphorous Sb 0 0 Antimony Zn 954 839 Zinc Total Base Number (TBN) TBN 8.0 7.5 Soot 0 Sulfur 17 Oxidation 34 Nitration 25 ZDDP -0.09 Visc SAE 40 20 Visc cSt 14 9.2 (both at 100 degrees C) Ferrous Debris 5 7 AntiFreeze Neg Neg Fuel Dilute Neg Neg Water Neg Neg So there you have it. I had just about no idea how to effectively use all this data. Blake helped me a lot and Scot also showed me the light on many parts. First, I probably don't have an engine about to blow up. : ) Stuff to look at: - Visc SAE (Viscosity) Viscosity is how thick the oil is. Multi weight oils like 10W-40 start as a thin 10W when cold and as they heat up they thicken to 40. The oil I was using tested at 20 at 100 degrees centigrade (212 F) and was probably caused by shearing in the transmission portion of the engine. This is too light for my comfort. Scot said an example of the wrong oil in the wrong compartment was a 15W-40 changing to 30W in 500 hours. This was from large components but gives you an idea of what would be bad. So I need to sample the oil at an earlier interval to help establish an appropriate OCI (Oil Change Interval). - TBN (Total Base Number) This is basically the ability of the additives to neutralize acid. New was 8.0 used was 7.5. This is real good showing plenty of base is left. But with no viscosity the oil is used up anyway. I probably won't pay for the TBN test again as it costs $8 and if I reduce the OCI (Oil Change Interval) it probably won't get worse. Acids are created in the engine from things like gasses (blow by), water, fuel etc. combining chemically. Getting an engine hot helps reduce a few of these components and that's where I hope the 195 degree stat I just installed will make a difference. - ZDDP I don't know what it really stands for and was asking how you get less than none. The -0.09 is based on a slope given by the machine that makes this measurement. I'm told this is outdated technology although I know most motorcyclists interested in oil analysis think it's very important. Scot thinks based on only one oil sample this is probably still ok. - Si Silicon. Blake seemed impressed with my low Si number of 4. He asked what air filter I'm using. For your info I use a NoToil air filter and NoToil filter maintenance products. Scot told me in the US dirt is mostly made of Al (Aluminum) and Si (Silicon). But he said you could get higher Si readings from gasket material, sealants, having an engine opened and getting shop dust into the engine etc. So my Al of 15 could be dirt through the air filter or gasket material or maybe I have some wear from internal engine issues. But nothing to worry about yet. Again I need more sampling to establish a trend. Maybe the low Si is the result of maybe 50% of this oil use was in rainy conditions which I'm guessing lead to cleaner air. Also I cleaned the oil pick up screen at about 3,200 miles which was the worse one I've ever seen. Mine was about 80% covered. Maybe I got a lot of old gasket material and sealant out of the engine. I know I pick up a lot of that on the screen. - Anti Freeze I got a negative which is good. Coolant in the oil indicates a problem. - Fuel Dilution Again a negative and not normally an issue with gasoline engines according to Scot. - Water I got a negative which again is good. I rode in some very heavy rain and also along some flooded roads. I'm not talking an inch of water on the road for 20 feet. I was on roads in northern Oklahoma with water rushing across the road a foot deep for 1/4 mile at a time. Did this probably 10 times. Pretty exciting riding. Looks like none got in the engine. This also indicates I don't have a water condensation problem. - Particle Count The report shows a particle count on the new oil but not on the used oil. The particle count isn't shown above at that data was all fat fingered in. Scot said they use an optical parts counter for this measurement and used oil is normally too dark to get a count. My new oil had one part that was 100 microns or larger. A micron is one millionth of a meter. A meter is 39.37008 inches. So that makes a micron 0.0000393". That means the one part in the new oil that was counted at greater than 100 microns was at least 0.00393". That's pretty big and out of new oil. - Soot I had zero and you should have none in a properly operating gasoline engine. - Sulfur I had a 17 which Scot thinks is fine. You really need a trend to see what's happening. Scot said he's only seen high sulfur numbers once and it's caused by serious neglect. - Oxidation My number was 34. Scot again thinks this looks safe. He suggested an upper limit would be maybe 50-60. Oxidation causes an increase in viscosity and leads to improper lubrication. I think I got that right. - Nitration My number was 25. Again this needs a trend established to really get any useful information. Scot thought an upper limit of 75% was about right. But again, without a trend established this is like asking how long is a piece of string. That's about all I can remember. Most important for me with this data is it was a real eye opener. I thought I'd been doing oil changes every 900-1,500 miles. Here's what I figured out last night. I got to thinking and went to the shop to evaluate all my oil and filter change intervals. Here's what I've done since I bought the bike at 1,482 miles. O=Oil F=Filter Change Odometer OCI in Miles Comments New 0 0 O&F 1,560 1,560 First Recorded O&F Change O&F 2,990 1,430 O&F 3,269 279 Cleaned oil pick up screen O&F 4,497 1,228 O 5,870 1,373 O 7,355 1,485 O 8,335 980 O&F 9,649 1,314 O&F 10,317 668 O 11,753 1,436 O 13,280 1,527 O&F 15,013 1,733 Begin Oil Analysis Average Oil Change Interval *1,317.4 miles *This is excluding 1st oil change at 1,560 miles and 3rd change at 3,269 miles. Five of those oil changes were during long trips. Two of them I remember saying I needed to change the oil as I could tell the shifting to neutral was getting tougher. Remember my bottom line from the beginning of this novel? I said I need to change my oil more often. So I can either start paying strict attention to my OCIs or consider maybe changing to a different oil that might not lower viscosity as quickly. I'm gonna stick with this oil for now and do another oil analysis in 1,000 miles. I'm also installing a magnetic low profile drain plug this time. Scot suggested the TBN test isn't really needed if I'm reducing my OCI as at 1,733 miles it was still fine. Once I see the results of the next SOS I'll have better information to decide what action if any to take. Also, I have to take this information lightly until I've established a trend. That means more samples. Hope you found this of some interest or use. I'd sure like to hear your comments and ideas on the list. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[RM]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:26:23 -0700, "Jeff Saline" said:

>thicken to 40. The oil I was using tested at 20 at 100 degrees >centigrade (212 F) and was probably caused by shearing in the >transmission portion of the engine. This is too light for my >comfort.

This is why I advocate 20W-50 if you're going to run a dino oil. 20W-50 is like pancake syrup but it doesn't stay that way for long. Anything else shears back too far.

>- TBN (Total Base Number) This is basically the ability of the >additives >to neutralize acid. New was 8.0 used was 7.5. This is real good >showing plenty of base is left. But with no viscosity the oil is >used up anyway. >I probably won't pay for the TBN test again as it costs $8 and if I >reduce the OCI (Oil Change Interval) it probably won't get worse.

I agree on dropping the TBN test. TBN is an important number for those trying to do extended drain intervals. In our case, our thumpers spew so much metal and shear the oil down so rapidly that we kill our oil by contamination and/or viscosity-loss long before TBN depletion becomes an issue.

>ZDDP I don't know what it really stands for and was asking how you get >less than none. The -0.09 is based on a slope given by the machine >that makes this measurement. I'm told this is outdated technology >although I know most motorcyclists interested in oil analysis think >it's very important. Scot thinks based on only one oil sample this >is probably still ok.

Yeah, that's a bizarre line on your test results. ZDDP is Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate. It's an anti-oxidizing, anti-corrosion, and anti-wear additive. Normally people look at the individual Zinc and Phosphorus numbers instead.

>- Si Silicon. Blake seemed impressed with my low Si number of 4.

I had 9ppm after 3000 miles, and that was after quite a bit of riding in the dusty dez. All of the Si numbers I've seen from a KLR have been decent. This is a testament to the effectiveness of oiled foam.

>Oxidation My number was 34. Scot again thinks this looks safe. He >suggested an upper limit would be maybe 50-60. Oxidation causes an >increase in viscosity and leads to improper lubrication. I think I >got that right. >Nitration My number was 25. Again this needs a trend established to >really get any useful information. Scot thought an upper limit of 75% >was about right. But again, without a trend established this is like >asking how long is a piece of string.

I think these numbers are high considering your short drain interval. High oxidation and nitration can be a sign of elevated oil temps. High nitration without high oxidation can point to ring blow-by or an over-rich mixture (not applicable here). After looking over the analyis numbers I've seen here lately, I'm starting to think that the KLR "needs" a synthetic more than just about any other application I've ever seen. Our engines are the 7th circle of tribological hell. RM

[Rodney Copeland]

A very comprehensive report Jeff. Thanks for your efforts. I couldn't sleep nights if I didn't change my bike oils under every thousand miles. I change my oil when the level drops into the site window or when I can't see the slot through the oil in the site window. Usually that's around 3 tanks of fuel. I seldom add, I change. I decided a long time ago to throw caution to the wind on my choice of oil and I just run 20-50 all the time in everything I've owned for a long time. I've not lost a motor yet and have gotten very good service out of all of them. (Outboards, Inboards, Diesel Tractor, Mowers, A few 4WD Trucks, 350 Chevy powered GT6 Triumph Spitfire, 350 Chevy powered 280Z Datsun and maybe forgot some other cars) If I told you what brand oil I've used for the last three decades I'd have to kill Ya. HHAAAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!! Thanks for a very informative report, Rod

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Saline wrote: > > KLR Listers, > > Two days ago I submitted an oil sample from my 2003 KLR650 for oil > analysis. More below but here's the bottom line. > > I need to change my oil more often. > > Disclaimer: > For those reading further everything below is mine and any errors, > mistakes, improper interpretation etc is mine and only mine. If you are > an oil guru I'd be happy to hear your constructive thoughts about what > I'm presenting for your examination. This has been an eye opening > experience for me. Again, all the mistakes that follow are by me and > nobody else. > > I've got to thank Blake Sobiloff for his help in figuring out a bit about > what the results mean. I know he's taken quite a bit of time to try to > explain this to me. I also just spent 33 minutes on the phone with Scot, > the lab analyst that did the testing. His insight to the results and his > best guesses as to what's going on were very helpful. > > Here's some background. The bike is a 2003 KLR650 with 15,013 miles on > it. Oil is Valvoline 10W-40, API rating SL. This oil change interval > (OCI) was 1,733 miles and the filter is by Emgo and has 4,696 miles on > it. I was not using a magnetic drain plug. I had new oil sampled as > well as the used oil. The new oil only gives a thumbprint of the used > oil. The only way to really figure out what is happening with the oil > and engine is to establish a trend by further oil sampling. Remember > that! The only way to really figure out what is happening with the oil > and engine is to establish a trend by further oil sampling. > > Here is the SOS (Schedule Oil Sampling) Fluids Analysis. Below I'll > provide what I hope is correct and useful. > > Element | Virgin | This OCI (Oil Change Interval) > Cu 0 9 Copper > Fe 1 14 Iron > Cr 0 0 Chrome > Ni 0 0 Nickel > Ti 0 0 Titan > V 0 0 Vanad > Ag 0 0 Silver > Pb 0 2 Lead > Sn 1 0 Tin > Al 0 15 Aluminum > Si 1 4 Silicon > Na 5 2 Sodium > K 0 1 Potassium > Mo 1 7 Moly > B 2 11 Boron > Ba 0 0 Barium > Ca 1925 2027 Calcium > Mg 10 12 Magnesium > Mn 0 0 Mangan?? > P 860 723 Phosphorous > Sb 0 0 Antimony > Zn 954 839 Zinc > > Total Base Number (TBN) > TBN 8.0 7.5 > Soot 0 > Sulfur 17 > Oxidation 34 > Nitration 25 > ZDDP -0.09 > Visc SAE 40 20 > Visc cSt 14 9.2 (both at 100 degrees C) > Ferrous Debris 5 7 > AntiFreeze Neg Neg > Fuel Dilute Neg Neg > Water Neg Neg > > So there you have it. I had just about no idea how to effectively use > all this data. Blake helped me a lot and Scot also showed me the light > on many parts. First, I probably don't have an engine about to blow up. > : ) Stuff to look at: > > - Visc SAE (Viscosity) Viscosity is how thick the oil is. Multi weight > oils like 10W-40 start as a thin 10W when cold and as they heat up they > thicken to 40. The oil I was using tested at 20 at 100 degrees > centigrade (212 F) and was probably caused by shearing in the > transmission portion of the engine. This is too light for my comfort. > Scot said an example of the wrong oil in the wrong compartment was a > 15W-40 changing to 30W in 500 hours. This was from large components but > gives you an idea of what would be bad. So I need to sample the oil at > an earlier interval to help establish an appropriate OCI (Oil Change > Interval). > > - TBN (Total Base Number) This is basically the ability of the additives > to neutralize acid. New was 8.0 used was 7.5. This is real good showing > plenty of base is left. But with no viscosity the oil is used up anyway. > I probably won't pay for the TBN test again as it costs $8 and if I > reduce the OCI (Oil Change Interval) it probably won't get worse. Acids > are created in the engine from things like gasses (blow by), water, fuel > etc. combining chemically. Getting an engine hot helps reduce a few of > these components and that's where I hope the 195 degree stat I just > installed will make a difference. > > - ZDDP I don't know what it really stands for and was asking how you get > less than none. The -0.09 is based on a slope given by the machine that > makes this measurement. I'm told this is outdated technology although I > know most motorcyclists interested in oil analysis think it's very > important. Scot thinks based on only one oil sample this is probably > still ok. > > - Si Silicon. Blake seemed impressed with my low Si number of 4. He > asked what air filter I'm using. For your info I use a NoToil air filter > and NoToil filter maintenance products. Scot told me in the US dirt is > mostly made of Al (Aluminum) and Si (Silicon). But he said you could get > higher Si readings from gasket material, sealants, having an engine > opened and getting shop dust into the engine etc. So my Al of 15 could > be dirt through the air filter or gasket material or maybe I have some > wear from internal engine issues. But nothing to worry about yet. Again > I need more sampling to establish a trend. Maybe the low Si is the > result of maybe 50% of this oil use was in rainy conditions which I'm > guessing lead to cleaner air. Also I cleaned the oil pick up screen at > about 3,200 miles which was the worse one I've ever seen. Mine was about > 80% covered. Maybe I got a lot of old gasket material and sealant out of > the engine. I know I pick up a lot of that on the screen. > > - Anti Freeze I got a negative which is good. Coolant in the oil > indicates a problem. > > - Fuel Dilution Again a negative and not normally an issue with gasoline > engines according to Scot. > > - Water I got a negative which again is good. I rode in some very heavy > rain and also along some flooded roads. I'm not talking an inch of water > on the road for 20 feet. I was on roads in northern Oklahoma with water > rushing across the road a foot deep for 1/4 mile at a time. Did this > probably 10 times. Pretty exciting riding. Looks like none got in the > engine. This also indicates I don't have a water condensation problem. > > - Particle Count The report shows a particle count on the new oil but > not on the used oil. The particle count isn't shown above at that data > was all fat fingered in. Scot said they use an optical parts counter for > this measurement and used oil is normally too dark to get a count. My > new oil had one part that was 100 microns or larger. A micron is one > millionth of a meter. A meter is 39.37008 inches. So that makes a > micron 0.0000393". That means the one part in the new oil that was > counted at greater than 100 microns was at least 0.00393". That's pretty > big and out of new oil. > > - Soot I had zero and you should have none in a properly operating > gasoline engine. > > - Sulfur I had a 17 which Scot thinks is fine. You really need a trend > to see what's happening. Scot said he's only seen high sulfur numbers > once and it's caused by serious neglect. > > - Oxidation My number was 34. Scot again thinks this looks safe. He > suggested an upper limit would be maybe 50-60. Oxidation causes an > increase in viscosity and leads to improper lubrication. I think I got > that right. > > - Nitration My number was 25. Again this needs a trend established to > really get any useful information. Scot thought an upper limit of 75% > was about right. But again, without a trend established this is like > asking how long is a piece of string. > > That's about all I can remember. Most important for me with this data is > it was a real eye opener. I thought I'd been doing oil changes every > 900-1,500 miles. Here's what I figured out last night. I got to > thinking and went to the shop to evaluate all my oil and filter change > intervals. Here's what I've done since I bought the bike at 1,482 miles. > > O=Oil F=Filter > Change Odometer OCI in Miles Comments > New 0 0 > O&F 1,560 1,560 First Recorded O&F Change > O&F 2,990 1,430 > O&F 3,269 279 Cleaned oil pick up screen > O&F 4,497 1,228 > O 5,870 1,373 > O 7,355 1,485 > O 8,335 980 > O&F 9,649 1,314 > O&F 10,317 668 > O 11,753 1,436 > O 13,280 1,527 > O&F 15,013 1,733 Begin Oil Analysis > > Average Oil Change Interval *1,317.4 miles > *This is excluding 1st oil change at 1,560 miles and 3rd change at 3,269 > miles. > > Five of those oil changes were during long trips. Two of them I remember > saying I needed to change the oil as I could tell the shifting to neutral > was getting tougher. > > Remember my bottom line from the beginning of this novel? I said I need > to change my oil more often. So I can either start paying strict > attention to my OCIs or consider maybe changing to a different oil that > might not lower viscosity as quickly. I'm gonna stick with this oil for > now and do another oil analysis in 1,000 miles. I'm also installing a > magnetic low profile drain plug this time. Scot suggested the TBN test > isn't really needed if I'm reducing my OCI as at 1,733 miles it was still > fine. Once I see the results of the next SOS I'll have better > information to decide what action if any to take. > > Also, I have to take this information lightly until I've established a > trend. That means more samples. > > Hope you found this of some interest or use. I'd sure like to hear your > comments and ideas on the list. > > Best, > > Jeff Saline > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT >

[Jeff Saline]

RM, Thanks for your comments. That's an interesting take on the information. Best, Jeff Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:25:50 -0800 "RM" writes:

> On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:26:23 -0700, "Jeff Saline" > said: > > >thicken to 40. The oil I was using tested at 20 at 100 degrees > >centigrade (212 F) and was probably caused by shearing in the > >transmission portion of the engine. This is too light for my > >comfort. > > This is why I advocate 20W-50 if you're going to run a dino oil. > 20W-50 > is like pancake syrup but it doesn't stay that way for long. > Anything > else shears back too far. > > >- TBN (Total Base Number) This is basically the ability of the > >additives > >to neutralize acid. New was 8.0 used was 7.5. This is real good > >showing plenty of base is left. But with no viscosity the oil is > >used up anyway. > >I probably won't pay for the TBN test again as it costs $8 and if > I > >reduce the OCI (Oil Change Interval) it probably won't get worse. > > > I agree on dropping the TBN test. TBN is an important number for > those > trying to do extended drain intervals. In our case, our thumpers > spew > so much metal and shear the oil down so rapidly that we kill our oil > by > contamination and/or viscosity-loss long before TBN depletion > becomes an > issue. > > >ZDDP I don't know what it really stands for and was asking how you > get > >less than none. The -0.09 is based on a slope given by the machine > >that makes this measurement. I'm told this is outdated technology > >although I know most motorcyclists interested in oil analysis think > >it's very important. Scot thinks based on only one oil sample this > >is probably still ok. > > Yeah, that's a bizarre line on your test results. ZDDP is Zinc > Dialkyldithiophosphate. It's an anti-oxidizing, anti-corrosion, > and > anti-wear additive. Normally people look at the individual Zinc > and > Phosphorus numbers instead. > > >- Si Silicon. Blake seemed impressed with my low Si number of 4. > > I had 9ppm after 3000 miles, and that was after quite a bit of riding > in > the dusty dez. All of the Si numbers I've seen from a KLR have > been > decent. This is a testament to the effectiveness of oiled foam. > > >Oxidation My number was 34. Scot again thinks this looks safe. > He > >suggested an upper limit would be maybe 50-60. Oxidation causes > an > >increase in viscosity and leads to improper lubrication. I think I > >got that right. > > >Nitration My number was 25. Again this needs a trend established > to > >really get any useful information. Scot thought an upper limit of > 75% > >was about right. But again, without a trend established this is > like > >asking how long is a piece of string. > > I think these numbers are high considering your short drain > interval. > High oxidation and nitration can be a sign of elevated oil temps. > High > nitration without high oxidation can point to ring blow-by or an > over-rich mixture (not applicable here). > > After looking over the analyis numbers I've seen here lately, I'm > starting to think that the KLR "needs" a synthetic more than just > about > any other application I've ever seen. Our engines are the 7th > circle of > tribological hell. > > RM > >

[Jeff Saline]

Rod, Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this. I was thinking that on a few trips I've taken if I changed the oil every 3rd tank of fuel I'd be changing it every other day or so. On a few days it would have been changed twice in one day. I was told a long time ago that you can't tell the condition of oil from it's color. But I sure understand that if you can't see the slot in the sight glass it's got to have picked up some contaminants. It's kind of like a mud puddle. Ya can't tell how deep it is from the top. : ) Thanks again and enjoy your Walmart brand recycled 20W-50 oil. : ) Jeff Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:44:04 -0000 "Rodney Copeland" writes:

> A very comprehensive report Jeff. > Thanks for your efforts. > I couldn't sleep nights if I didn't change my bike oils under every > > thousand miles. > I change my oil when the level drops into the site window or when I > > can't see the slot through the oil in the site window. > Usually that's around 3 tanks of fuel. > I seldom add, I change. > I decided a long time ago to throw caution to the wind on my choice > > of oil and I just run 20-50 all the time in everything I've owned > for > a long time. > I've not lost a motor yet and have gotten very good service out of > all of them. (Outboards, Inboards, Diesel Tractor, Mowers, A few 4WD > > Trucks, 350 Chevy powered GT6 Triumph Spitfire, 350 Chevy powered > 280Z Datsun and maybe forgot some other cars) > If I told you what brand oil I've used for the last three decades > I'd > have to kill Ya. > HHAAAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!! > Thanks for a very informative report, > Rod > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Saline > wrote: > > > > KLR Listers, > > > > Two days ago I submitted an oil sample from my 2003 KLR650 for > oil > > analysis. More below but here's the bottom line. > > > > I need to change my oil more often. > > > > Disclaimer: > > For those reading further everything below is mine and any > errors, > > mistakes, improper interpretation etc is mine and only mine. If > you are > > an oil guru I'd be happy to hear your constructive thoughts about > > what > > I'm presenting for your examination. This has been an eye > opening > > experience for me. Again, all the mistakes that follow are by me > > and > > nobody else. > > > > I've got to thank Blake Sobiloff for his help in figuring out a > bit > about > > what the results mean. I know he's taken quite a bit of time to > try to > > explain this to me. I also just spent 33 minutes on the phone > with > , > > the lab analyst that did the testing. His insight to the results > > and his > > best guesses as to what's going on were very helpful. > > > > Here's some background. The bike is a 2003 KLR650 with 15,013 > miles on > > it. Oil is Valvoline 10W-40, API rating SL. This oil change > interval > > (OCI) was 1,733 miles and the filter is by Emgo and has 4,696 > miles > on > > it. I was not using a magnetic drain plug. I had new oil sampled > > as > > well as the used oil. The new oil only gives a thumbprint of the > > used > > oil. The only way to really figure out what is happening with the > > oil > > and engine is to establish a trend by further oil sampling. > Remember > > that! The only way to really figure out what is happening with > the > oil > > and engine is to establish a trend by further oil sampling. > > > > Here is the SOS (Schedule Oil Sampling) Fluids Analysis. Below > I'll > > provide what I hope is correct and useful. > > > > Element | Virgin | This OCI (Oil Change Interval) > > Cu 0 9 Copper > > Fe 1 14 Iron > > Cr 0 0 Chrome > > Ni 0 0 Nickel > > Ti 0 0 Titan > > V 0 0 Vanad > > Ag 0 0 Silver > > Pb 0 2 Lead > > Sn 1 0 Tin > > Al 0 15 Aluminum > > Si 1 4 Silicon > > Na 5 2 Sodium > > K 0 1 Potassium > > Mo 1 7 Moly > > B 2 11 Boron > > Ba 0 0 Barium > > Ca 1925 2027 Calcium > > Mg 10 12 Magnesium > > Mn 0 0 Mangan?? > > P 860 723 Phosphorous > > Sb 0 0 Antimony > > Zn 954 839 Zinc > > > > Total Base Number (TBN) > > TBN 8.0 7.5 > > Soot 0 > > Sulfur 17 > > Oxidation 34 > > Nitration 25 > > ZDDP -0.09 > > Visc SAE 40 20 > > Visc cSt 14 9.2 (both at 100 degrees C) > > Ferrous Debris 5 7 > > AntiFreeze Neg Neg > > Fuel Dilute Neg Neg > > Water Neg Neg > > > > So there you have it. I had just about no idea how to effectively > > use > > all this data. Blake helped me a lot and Scot also showed me the > > light > > on many parts. First, I probably don't have an engine about to > blow up. > > : ) Stuff to look at: > > > > - Visc SAE (Viscosity) Viscosity is how thick the oil is. Multi > > weight > > oils like 10W-40 start as a thin 10W when cold and as they heat up > > they > > thicken to 40. The oil I was using tested at 20 at 100 degrees > > centigrade (212 F) and was probably caused by shearing in the > > transmission portion of the engine. This is too light for my > comfort. > > Scot said an example of the wrong oil in the wrong compartment was > a > > 15W-40 changing to 30W in 500 hours. This was from large > components but > > gives you an idea of what would be bad. So I need to sample the > oil at > > an earlier interval to help establish an appropriate OCI (Oil > Change > > Interval). > > > > - TBN (Total Base Number) This is basically the ability of the > additives > > to neutralize acid. New was 8.0 used was 7.5. This is real good > > showing > > plenty of base is left. But with no viscosity the oil is used up > > anyway. > > I probably won't pay for the TBN test again as it costs $8 and if > I > > reduce the OCI (Oil Change Interval) it probably won't get worse. > > Acids > > are created in the engine from things like gasses (blow by), > water, > fuel > > etc. combining chemically. Getting an engine hot helps reduce a > few of > > these components and that's where I hope the 195 degree stat I > just > > installed will make a difference. > > > > - ZDDP I don't know what it really stands for and was asking how > you get > > less than none. The -0.09 is based on a slope given by the > machine > that > > makes this measurement. I'm told this is outdated technology > although I > > know most motorcyclists interested in oil analysis think it's > very > > important. Scot thinks based on only one oil sample this is > probably > > still ok. > > > > - Si Silicon. Blake seemed impressed with my low Si number of 4. > > He > > asked what air filter I'm using. For your info I use a NoToil air > > filter > > and NoToil filter maintenance products. Scot told me in the US > dirt is > > mostly made of Al (Aluminum) and Si (Silicon). But he said you > could get > > higher Si readings from gasket material, sealants, having an > engine > > opened and getting shop dust into the engine etc. So my Al of 15 > > could > > be dirt through the air filter or gasket material or maybe I have > > some > > wear from internal engine issues. But nothing to worry about yet. > > Again > > I need more sampling to establish a trend. Maybe the low Si is > the > > result of maybe 50% of this oil use was in rainy conditions which > > I'm > > guessing lead to cleaner air. Also I cleaned the oil pick up > screen at > > about 3,200 miles which was the worse one I've ever seen. Mine was > > about > > 80% covered. Maybe I got a lot of old gasket material and sealant > > out of > > the engine. I know I pick up a lot of that on the screen. > > > > - Anti Freeze I got a negative which is good. Coolant in the > oil > > indicates a problem. > > > > - Fuel Dilution Again a negative and not normally an issue with > gasoline > > engines according to Scot. > > > > - Water I got a negative which again is good. I rode in some > very > heavy > > rain and also along some flooded roads. I'm not talking an inch > of > water > > on the road for 20 feet. I was on roads in northern Oklahoma with > > water > > rushing across the road a foot deep for 1/4 mile at a time. Did > this > > probably 10 times. Pretty exciting riding. Looks like none got > in > the > > engine. This also indicates I don't have a water condensation > problem. > > > > - Particle Count The report shows a particle count on the new oil > > but > > not on the used oil. The particle count isn't shown above at that > > data > > was all fat fingered in. Scot said they use an optical parts > counter for > > this measurement and used oil is normally too dark to get a count. > > My > > new oil had one part that was 100 microns or larger. A micron is > > one > > millionth of a meter. A meter is 39.37008 inches. So that makes > a > > micron 0.0000393". That means the one part in the new oil that > was > > counted at greater than 100 microns was at least 0.00393". That's > > pretty > > big and out of new oil. > > > > - Soot I had zero and you should have none in a properly > operating > > gasoline engine. > > > > - Sulfur I had a 17 which Scot thinks is fine. You really need a > > trend > > to see what's happening. Scot said he's only seen high sulfur > numbers > > once and it's caused by serious neglect. > > > > - Oxidation My number was 34. Scot again thinks this looks safe. > > He > > suggested an upper limit would be maybe 50-60. Oxidation causes > an > > increase in viscosity and leads to improper lubrication. I think > I > got > > that right. > > > > - Nitration My number was 25. Again this needs a trend > established to > > really get any useful information. Scot thought an upper limit of > > 75% > > was about right. But again, without a trend established this is > like > > asking how long is a piece of string. > > > > That's about all I can remember. Most important for me with this > > data is > > it was a real eye opener. I thought I'd been doing oil changes > every > > 900-1,500 miles. Here's what I figured out last night. I got to > > thinking and went to the shop to evaluate all my oil and filter > change > > intervals. Here's what I've done since I bought the bike at 1,482 > > miles. > > > > O=Oil F=Filter > > Change Odometer OCI in Miles Comments > > New 0 0 > > O&F 1,560 1,560 First Recorded O&F Change > > O&F 2,990 1,430 > > O&F 3,269 279 Cleaned oil pick up > screen > > O&F 4,497 1,228 > > O 5,870 1,373 > > O 7,355 1,485 > > O 8,335 980 > > O&F 9,649 1,314 > > O&F 10,317 668 > > O 11,753 1,436 > > O 13,280 1,527 > > O&F 15,013 1,733 Begin Oil Analysis > > > > Average Oil Change Interval *1,317.4 miles > > *This is excluding 1st oil change at 1,560 miles and 3rd change at > > 3,269 > > miles. > > > > Five of those oil changes were during long trips. Two of them I > remember > > saying I needed to change the oil as I could tell the shifting to > > neutral > > was getting tougher. > > > > Remember my bottom line from the beginning of this novel? I said > I > need > > to change my oil more often. So I can either start paying strict > > attention to my OCIs or consider maybe changing to a different oil > > that > > might not lower viscosity as quickly. I'm gonna stick with this > oil for > > now and do another oil analysis in 1,000 miles. I'm also > installing a > > magnetic low profile drain plug this time. Scot suggested the TBN > > test > > isn't really needed if I'm reducing my OCI as at 1,733 miles it > was > still > > fine. Once I see the results of the next SOS I'll have better > > information to decide what action if any to take. > > > > Also, I have to take this information lightly until I've > established a > > trend. That means more samples. > > > > Hope you found this of some interest or use. I'd sure like to > hear > your > > comments and ideas on the list. > > > > Best, > > > > Jeff Saline > > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT > > > > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >

[Rock n Roll]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned and I miised it, but you can find out everything you ever wanted to know about lubes and oil analysis on a forum called BobIsTheOilGuy. I sample engine oil in my diesel Jetta. There are a lot of labs doing this for the trucking and heavy equipment industry-- Blackstone, AVLubes, Dingo, etc. You can bring down your cost per sample by buying a "pack" of containers. I last purchased a 10-pack called "Maintenance Guy Fleet Premium" for $120 from www.dingo.com . This is their program that includes TBN. Their less comprehensive program runs about $80 for 10. The report you get shows your previous samples as well, so you can easily compare parameters across time giving you an idea of engine wear as well as the impact of longer/shorter drain intervals. I guess what I'm unclear about is given the small amount of oil a KLR holds, and the cost of oil, especially a non-synthetic blend, why bother with oil analysis? It barely makes sense for my Jetta, although I have been able to run 15,000 miles between changes with no problem, and that has saved me the cost of several oil changes. It makes more sense for semis running 12 gallons of Rotella Synthetic. They just keep sampling periodically until the lab results say it's time for new oil. Seems in a bike the relative cost doesn't make sense. Am I missing something? John ABC #5556 --- Jeff Saline wrote:

> Rod, > > Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this. I was > thinking that on a > few trips I've taken if I changed the oil every 3rd > tank of fuel I'd be > changing it every other day or so. On a few days it > would have been > changed twice in one day. I was told a long time > ago that you can't tell > the condition of oil from it's color. But I sure > understand that if you > can't see the slot in the sight glass it's got to > have picked up some > contaminants. It's kind of like a mud puddle. Ya > can't tell how deep it > is from the top. : ) > > Thanks again and enjoy your Walmart brand recycled > 20W-50 oil. : ) > > Jeff > > Jeff Saline > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT > > On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:44:04 -0000 "Rodney Copeland" > > writes: > > A very comprehensive report Jeff. > > Thanks for your efforts. > > I couldn't sleep nights if I didn't change my bike > oils under every > > > > thousand miles. > > I change my oil when the level drops into the site > window or when I > > > > can't see the slot through the oil in the site > window. > > Usually that's around 3 tanks of fuel. > > I seldom add, I change. > > I decided a long time ago to throw caution to the > wind on my choice > > > > of oil and I just run 20-50 all the time in > everything I've owned > > for > > a long time. > > I've not lost a motor yet and have gotten very > good service out of > > all of them. (Outboards, Inboards, Diesel Tractor, > Mowers, A few 4WD > > > > Trucks, 350 Chevy powered GT6 Triumph Spitfire, > 350 Chevy powered > > 280Z Datsun and maybe forgot some other cars) > > If I told you what brand oil I've used for the > last three decades > > I'd > > have to kill Ya. > > HHAAAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!! > > Thanks for a very informative report, > > Rod > > > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Saline > > > wrote: > > > > > > KLR Listers, > > > > > > Two days ago I submitted an oil sample from my > 2003 KLR650 for > > oil > > > analysis. More below but here's the bottom > line. > > > > > > I need to change my oil more often. > > > > > > Disclaimer: > > > For those reading further everything below is > mine and any > > errors, > > > mistakes, improper interpretation etc is mine > and only mine. If > > you are > > > an oil guru I'd be happy to hear your > constructive thoughts about > > > > what > > > I'm presenting for your examination. This has > been an eye > > opening > > > experience for me. Again, all the mistakes that > follow are by me > > > > and > > > nobody else. > > > > > > I've got to thank Blake Sobiloff for his help in > figuring out a > > bit > > about > > > what the results mean. I know he's taken quite > a bit of time to > > try to > > > explain this to me. I also just spent 33 > minutes on the phone > > with > > , > > > the lab analyst that did the testing. His > insight to the results > > > > and his > > > best guesses as to what's going on were very > helpful. > > > > > > Here's some background. The bike is a 2003 > KLR650 with 15,013 > > miles on > > > it. Oil is Valvoline 10W-40, API rating SL. > This oil change > > interval > > > (OCI) was 1,733 miles and the filter is by Emgo > and has 4,696 > > miles > > on > > > it. I was not using a magnetic drain plug. I > had new oil sampled > > > > as > > > well as the used oil. The new oil only gives a > thumbprint of the > > > > used > > > oil. The only way to really figure out what is > happening with the > > > > oil > > > and engine is to establish a trend by further > oil sampling. > > Remember > > > that! The only way to really figure out what is > happening with > > the > > oil > > > and engine is to establish a trend by further > oil sampling. > > > > > > Here is the SOS (Schedule Oil Sampling) Fluids > Analysis. Below > > I'll > > > provide what I hope is correct and useful. > > > > > > Element | Virgin | This OCI (Oil Change > Interval) > > > Cu 0 9 Copper > > > Fe 1 14 Iron > > > Cr 0 0 Chrome > > > Ni 0 0 Nickel > > > Ti 0 0 Titan > > > V 0 0 Vanad > > > Ag 0 0 Silver > > > Pb 0 2 Lead > > > Sn 1 0 Tin > > > Al 0 15 Aluminum > > > Si 1 4 Silicon > > > Na 5 2 Sodium > > > K 0 1 Potassium > > > Mo 1 7 Moly > > > B 2 11 Boron > > > Ba 0 0 Barium > > > Ca 1925 2027 Calcium > > > Mg 10 12 Magnesium > > > Mn 0 0 Mangan?? > > > P 860 723 Phosphorous > > > Sb 0 0 Antimony > > > Zn 954 839 Zinc > > > > > > Total Base Number (TBN) > > > TBN 8.0 7.5 > > > Soot 0 > > > Sulfur 17 > > > Oxidation 34 > > > Nitration 25 > > > ZDDP -0.09 > > > Visc SAE 40 20 > > > Visc cSt 14 9.2 (both at 100 degrees > C) > > > Ferrous Debris 5 7 > > > AntiFreeze Neg Neg > > > Fuel Dilute Neg Neg > > > Water Neg Neg > > > > > > So there you have it. I had just about no idea > how

=== message truncated === __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com

[Jeff Saline]

John, I think Blake has mentioned the Bobistheoilguy site. Or maybe it was just to me off list. I think you have a good point from an economic view and aren't missing anything. The analysis does cost way more than a couple of oil changes for most folks. But the only way to get a look at some data was to do the analysis. I think that's what we're really interested in. Well, from the response on list most listers don't have anything to say but maybe they found the info useful. We'll probably never know but I hope it was useful. I talked with another local KLR rider this evening at the club holiday party. He's running Delvac and said he'd run his oil to 1,700 miles and then test it where I got mine tested. He used to live in ND and knows Scot at the lab. Should be interesting to see the results. I am sure I wouldn't be comfortable now using any oil for 2,000 miles in the KLR without at least one or two tests to show it's holding up ok. The viscosity breakdown in my oil sure was shocking. Thanks for your comments. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:43:48 -0800 (PST) Rock n Roll writes:

> Perhaps this has already been mentioned and I miised > it, but you can find out everything you ever wanted to > know about lubes and oil analysis on a forum called > BobIsTheOilGuy. > > I sample engine oil in my diesel Jetta. There are a > lot of labs doing this for the trucking and heavy > equipment industry-- Blackstone, AVLubes, Dingo, etc. > You can bring down your cost per sample by buying a > "pack" of containers. > > I last purchased a 10-pack called "Maintenance Guy > Fleet Premium" for $120 from www.dingo.com . This is > their program that includes TBN. Their less > comprehensive program runs about $80 for 10. The > report you get shows your previous samples as well, so > you can easily compare parameters across time giving > you an idea of engine wear as well as the impact of > longer/shorter drain intervals. > > I guess what I'm unclear about is given the small > amount of oil a KLR holds, and the cost of oil, > especially a non-synthetic blend, why bother with oil > analysis? It barely makes sense for my Jetta, > although I have been able to run 15,000 miles between > changes with no problem, and that has saved me the > cost of several oil changes. It makes more sense for > semis running 12 gallons of Rotella Synthetic. They > just keep sampling periodically until the lab results > say it's time for new oil. > > Seems in a bike the relative cost doesn't make sense. > Am I missing something? > > John > ABC #5556

[W.V. Doran]

Jeff...I for one certainly appreciate all the work, effort and $$$ you and others have put into this oil thread. It's Lister's like you who make this list so valuable to the rest of us list lurkers. I may not put your information into practice but at least I can now make an informed decision. Thank you.... List lurker who likes to farkel..... WVDoran Scottsdale, AZ Jeff Saline wrote: John, I think Blake has mentioned the Bobistheoilguy site. Or maybe it was just to me off list. I think you have a good point from an economic view and aren't missing anything. The analysis does cost way more than a couple of oil changes for most folks. But the only way to get a look at some data was to do the analysis. I think that's what we're really interested in. Well, from the response on list most listers don't have anything to say but maybe they found the info useful. We'll probably never know but I hope it was useful. I talked with another local KLR rider this evening at the club holiday party. He's running Delvac and said he'd run his oil to 1,700 miles and then test it where I got mine tested. He used to live in ND and knows Scot at the lab. Should be interesting to see the results. I am sure I wouldn't be comfortable now using any oil for 2,000 miles in the KLR without at least one or two tests to show it's holding up ok. The viscosity breakdown in my oil sure was shocking. Thanks for your comments. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:43:48 -0800 (PST) Rock n Roll writes:

> Perhaps this has already been mentioned and I miised > it, but you can find out everything you ever wanted to > know about lubes and oil analysis on a forum called > BobIsTheOilGuy. > > I sample engine oil in my diesel Jetta. There are a > lot of labs doing this for the trucking and heavy > equipment industry-- Blackstone, AVLubes, Dingo, etc. > You can bring down your cost per sample by buying a > "pack" of containers. > > I last purchased a 10-pack called "Maintenance Guy > Fleet Premium" for $120 from www.dingo.com . This is > their program that includes TBN. Their less > comprehensive program runs about $80 for 10. The > report you get shows your previous samples as well, so > you can easily compare parameters across time giving > you an idea of engine wear as well as the impact of > longer/shorter drain intervals. > > I guess what I'm unclear about is given the small > amount of oil a KLR holds, and the cost of oil, > especially a non-synthetic blend, why bother with oil > analysis? It barely makes sense for my Jetta, > although I have been able to run 15,000 miles between > changes with no problem, and that has saved me the > cost of several oil changes. It makes more sense for > semis running 12 gallons of Rotella Synthetic. They > just keep sampling periodically until the lab results > say it's time for new oil. > > Seems in a bike the relative cost doesn't make sense. > Am I missing something? > > John > ABC #5556

Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links WVDoran Scottsdale, AZ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 05:45:50 -0800 (PST) "W.V. Doran" writes:

> Jeff...I for one certainly appreciate all the work, effort and $$$ > you and others have put into this oil thread. It's Lister's like you > who make this list so valuable to the rest of us list lurkers. I may > not put your information into practice but at least I can now make > an informed decision. > Thank you.... > List lurker who likes to farkel..... > WVDoran > Scottsdale, AZ

WV, Thanks! It's good to hear this is helpful. Jeff Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Jan 7, 2006, at 9:43 PM, Rock n Roll wrote:

> I guess what I'm unclear about is given the small > amount of oil a KLR holds, and the cost of oil, > especially a non-synthetic blend, why bother with oil > analysis?

Two reasons: 1) Determine how long you can run your oil of choice before it's toast, and 2) Determine if your engine and transmission are happy, or if they're throwing off elevated levels of wear metals that you need to look into. -- Blake Sobiloff http://sobiloff.typepad.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)