right blinkers now working; mundo bizarro

[Bogdan Swider]

Anybody else read the interview with Harry Hurt - moto crash/helmet expert - in the latest MCN ? What jumped out at me was his belief that a $70 - $80 helmet is as good and maybe superior to an top brand expensive lid. Why ? The cheapo passes only the DOT test which is better than the Snell standard the prime helmet passes in addition. If you pass the Snell standard - he opinions - the padding is too hard. So... the rhetorical " Do you have a $400 or a $70 head ?" doesn't seem to be valid. By getting the $99 Electro 4 in 1 from J.C. Whitney you might be made safer than springing for the Arai Dual Sport that runs $400. Bogdan

[Streetfighters]

What???????? or more appropriately - WTF? DOT is not a better test than SNELL. Crap. This guy really knows his stuff eh? I'll be checking on this more. Geoff- www.oldrice.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bogdan Swider" To: "KLR list" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:23 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Harry Hurt - Helmets > > Anybody else read the interview with Harry Hurt - moto crash/helmet > expert - > in the latest MCN ? What jumped out at me was his belief that a $70 - $80 > helmet is as good and maybe superior to an top brand expensive lid. Why ? > The cheapo passes only the DOT test which is better than the Snell > standard > the prime helmet passes in addition. If you pass the Snell standard - he > opinions - the padding is too hard. So... the rhetorical " Do you have a > $400 or a $70 head ?" doesn't seem to be valid. By getting the $99 Electro > 4 > in 1 from J.C. Whitney you might be made safer than springing for the Arai > Dual Sport that runs $400. > > Bogdan

[Tom Komjathy]

Harry has allot of history, and background in this area. TK

----- Original Message ----- From: "Streetfighters" To: "KLR list" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com>; "Bogdan Swider" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Harry Hurt - Helmets > > What???????? > or more appropriately - WTF? > > DOT is not a better test than SNELL. > > Crap. This guy really knows his stuff eh? > > I'll be checking on this more. > > Geoff- > www.oldrice.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bogdan Swider" > To: "KLR list" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 11:23 AM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Harry Hurt - Helmets > > > > > > Anybody else read the interview with Harry Hurt - moto crash/helmet > > expert - > > in the latest MCN ? What jumped out at me was his belief that a $70 - $80 > > helmet is as good and maybe superior to an top brand expensive lid. Why ? > > The cheapo passes only the DOT test which is better than the Snell > > standard > > the prime helmet passes in addition. If you pass the Snell standard - he > > opinions - the padding is too hard. So... the rhetorical " Do you have a > > $400 or a $70 head ?" doesn't seem to be valid. By getting the $99 Electro > > 4 > > in 1 from J.C. Whitney you might be made safer than springing for the Arai > > Dual Sport that runs $400. > > > > Bogdan > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >

[Bogdan Swider]

> What???????? > or more appropriately - WTF? > > DOT is not a better test than SNELL. > > Crap.

Unlike you, Geoff, I'm not an expert in this area. I was merely conveying what ole Harry Hurt said to get some feedback on this topic. Perhaps you can share with us your credentials and experience. Why do you think DOT is not better than Snell ? Bogdan

[baltopilas]

You mean I could get rid of my full face and buy something like this: http://www.buymotorcyclehelmets.com/product.asp?itemid=229&catid=68

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Swider wrote: > > What???????? > > or more appropriately - WTF? > > > > DOT is not a better test than SNELL. > > > > Crap. > > Unlike you, Geoff, I'm not an expert in this area. I was merely conveying > what ole Harry Hurt said to get some feedback on this topic. Perhaps you can > share with us your credentials and experience. Why do you think DOT is not > better than Snell ? > > Bogdan

[John Kokola]

IIRC ... The Snell test replicates a much higher rate of speed than does the DOT test. If you crash on the street at a moderate rate of speed, it might be true that a DOT-only rated helmet would serve you better. If you crash on the track at a high rate of speed, you might be better served with a Snell-rated helmet. Chime in anytime if you've got better information. --John Kokola -----Original Message----- From: Bogdan Swider

> What???????? > or more appropriately - WTF? > > DOT is not a better test than SNELL. > > Crap.

Unlike you, Geoff, I'm not an expert in this area.

[Robert Diaz]

Here are several links that do Snell vs DOT comparisons. http://www.smf.org/articles/mcomp2.html http://www.off-road.com/snowmobile/reviews/2001/snell/snell_vs_dot.htm http://4wheeldrive.about.com/cs/beginningatv/a/atvriderhelmets_4.htm Rob D. ;-) John Kokola wrote: IIRC ... The Snell test replicates a much higher rate of speed than does the DOT test. If you crash on the street at a moderate rate of speed, it might be true that a DOT-only rated helmet would serve you better. If you crash on the track at a high rate of speed, you might be better served with a Snell-rated helmet. Chime in anytime if you've got better information. --John Kokola -----Original Message----- From: Bogdan Swider

> What???????? > or more appropriately - WTF? > > DOT is not a better test than SNELL. > > Crap.

Unlike you, Geoff, I'm not an expert in this area. List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bogdan Swider]

> > Anyway, DOT has come a very long way in regards to helmet test standards in > the last twenty years, but so has SNELL. Having said that, please read the > following and judge for yourself - > http://www.off-road.com/snowmobile/reviews/2001/snell/snell_vs_dot.htm but > it says what I believe.

Thanks for the interesting bio, Geoff. You obviously have way more acumen in this area than I do. However, the site above is the Snell site that Doug posted earlier. Harry Hurt says that they have no demonstrably objective reason for dropping a helmet 3.06 meters. I'd be curious as to what you'd say after reading the MCN article. Bogdan

[Streetfighters]

Hi Bogdan, I'm not an expert in the field of helmets - but I am in the field of testing. And that goes for Safety Testing to various standards too. I'm no expert in materials or the construction of helmets, but I know a great deal about carbon fiber and fiberglass construction and their use in the world of motorcycling, boating, and automobiles. I'm Director of Quality for a major automotive supplier here in Detroit and have been for years. And no - I didn't graduate college and jump into this position, I climbed from the bottom. I have over 20 years in Quality and manufacturing. I developed, implemented, and performed test standards (as well as test labs) for Product Validation, and Design Validation and verification to MY standard above and beyond those required by our customers with regards to safety and to enhance the APQP concerning our products. This also encompasses electronics, plastics (interior & exterior w/class A surface requirements), metal stampings, airbags, seatbelts, occupant detection systems, and interior trim including seats. Parametric, Durability and Reliability testing is one of my specialties. And yeah, I'm a bit of gearhead too. I know the difference between gear backlash and whiplash. First of all, let's clear up a few things. For one, I'm opposed to the basic helmet law issue. Having said that I wear a helmet almost every time I ride my bike. I sometimes don't when I ride to my buddy's place - just down the street. I grew up in Southern California and back then, it wasn't mandatory to wear one. So I've done some stupid things back then without helmets (and with helmets too, ha, ha), and I'm lucky to be here now. I've used up quite a few helmets in my life and my life has certainly been saved more than a few times by my helmets. I've owned Bells, Arais, Shoeis, AGVs and Simpsons - plural in all of them. That's a lot of helmets. I really like a nice helmet. I really dislike a helmet that's bothersome (to me) in some way whether it's ventilation, noise or comfort and including but not limited to it "working" when it's supposed to. My bells used to leave these annoying little dots on my forehead for hours after wearing them for instance. Anyway, DOT has come a very long way in regards to helmet test standards in the last twenty years, but so has SNELL. Having said that, please read the following and judge for yourself - I'm not going to re-write everything that's said here and it's a little too big to be cut/pasted in to this email. http://www.off-road.com/snowmobile/reviews/2001/snell/snell_vs_dot.htm but it says what I believe. BTW - I'm not rich enough to spend 700 on a helmet. I currently have an AGV that suits me fine. I think I paid something like 150 for it a few years ago. But if I was rich, I'd have me a couple a bitchin helmets from Arai and Shoei. Man. I knew this was going to be a big thing. Geoff- www.oldrice.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bogdan Swider" To: "Streetfighters" ; "KLR list" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Harry Hurt - Helmets > >> What???????? >> or more appropriately - WTF? >> >> DOT is not a better test than SNELL. >> >> Crap. > > Unlike you, Geoff, I'm not an expert in this area. I was merely conveying > what ole Harry Hurt said to get some feedback on this topic. Perhaps you > can > share with us your credentials and experience. Why do you think DOT is not > better than Snell ? > > Bogdan

[Jud Jones]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Swider wrote:

> > What???????? > > or more appropriately - WTF? > > > > DOT is not a better test than SNELL. > > > > Crap. > > Unlike you, Geoff, I'm not an expert in this area. I was merely conveying > what ole Harry Hurt said to get some feedback on this topic. Perhaps you

can

> share with us your credentials and experience. Why do you think DOT is not > better than Snell ? > > Bogdan

I recall reading something like this from (probably) Harry Hurt some ten or 15 years ago. My recollection is vague and probably inaccurate, but his thinking went. something like: the Snell test includes tests against a lot of kinds of impacts that apply more to auto crashes and less to bike crashes, including higher energy impacts where the integrity of the shell is more of an issue. As a consequence, a helmet designed to excel at these tests tended to pass more of the energy to the rider's head. The tradeoff: fewer fatalities in the most severe impacts with a Snell helmet, but more concussions compared to a DOT-only helmet in the less extreme impacts. Also, Snell shells tended to be heavier than DOT only shells, with whatever side effects that entails. Caveat: my recollection and understanding of this issue are imperfect, but I remember that, whatever it was, it seemed to make sense at the time.