ncis segment

[Glen]

hey all, i just took the engine out of the frame for the second time!! it is a long story as to why but it basically comes down to not being able to afford a transmission part at the time and therefore thinking "it will be okay", BUT it isn't okay and i want to fix it when it is cold not when it is sunny in the summer, since the riding season is so short around here. now to the question: last time i did the rebuild i was sans rotor holder tool and such but what i used was an electric impact to remove the bolt which i don't see as a problem. i also installed it this way and it ran fine and is still running fine 15,000 kms later so my plan is to do it again this way, making sure i use a new bolt with some locktite on it, the main reason for this is as you might have guess lack of money. i know the purists would say to make sure that i use the holder tool and such but i am just wondering are there any negative consequences to this?? as i said i haven't seen any after 15,000 kms is there anyone out there who has?? glenski - don't worry i already did my doohickey last time!! a14

[Fred Hink]

Negative consequences? How about that nagging little voice in the back of your head saying "I wonder if that rotor bolt got tight enough and if the flywheel is going to fly off" or "I wonder if that rotor bolt got tightened too much and the rotor bolt breaks, letting the flywheel fly off?". Since you don't know at what torque your electric impact wrench would tighten this bolt, it may be the correct torque, too tight or not tight enough. There lies the problem. If you could find out what torque your impact wrench will work at, this might help silence those voices. Fred http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/cmc.html

----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen" To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:58 AM Subject: [DSN_klr650] engine rebuild - rotor removal > > > hey all, > > i just took the engine out of the frame for the second time!! it is > a long story as to why but it basically comes down to not being able > to afford a transmission part at the time and therefore thinking "it > will be okay", BUT it isn't okay and i want to fix it when it is > cold not when it is sunny in the summer, since the riding season is > so short around here. now to the question: last time i did the > rebuild i was sans rotor holder tool and such but what i used was an > electric impact to remove the bolt which i don't see as a problem. > i also installed it this way and it ran fine and is still running > fine 15,000 kms later so my plan is to do it again this way, making > sure i use a new bolt with some locktite on it, the main reason for > this is as you might have guess lack of money. i know the purists > would say to make sure that i use the holder tool and such but i am > just wondering are there any negative consequences to this?? as i > said i haven't seen any after 15,000 kms is there anyone out there > who has?? > > glenski - don't worry i already did my doohickey last time!! > a14

[Conall]

I agree with Fred, without a " torque stick" you really have no idea how much torque you are applying with your air wrench. A torque stick is commonly used by automotive garages when reinstalling wheel lug nuts/bolts. They are rated for different torque ratings, are spring loaded devices that will automatically stop tightening the bolts once the torque value is reached. Problem is torque sticks are not inexpensive. Maybe a torque stick is an item you may want to be able to supply Fred. Conall

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Hink" wrote: > Negative consequences? How about that nagging little voice in the back of > your head saying "I wonder if that rotor bolt got tight enough and if the > flywheel is going to fly off" or "I wonder if that rotor bolt got tightened > too much and the rotor bolt breaks, letting the flywheel fly off?". Since > you don't know at what torque your electric impact wrench would tighten this > bolt, it may be the correct torque, too tight or not tight enough. There > lies the problem. If you could find out what torque your impact wrench will > work at, this might help silence those voices. > > Fred > http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/cmc.html > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glen" > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:58 AM > Subject: [DSN_klr650] engine rebuild - rotor removal > > > > > > > > hey all, > > > > i just took the engine out of the frame for the second time!! it is > > a long story as to why but it basically comes down to not being able > > to afford a transmission part at the time and therefore thinking "it > > will be okay", BUT it isn't okay and i want to fix it when it is > > cold not when it is sunny in the summer, since the riding season is > > so short around here. now to the question: last time i did the > > rebuild i was sans rotor holder tool and such but what i used was an > > electric impact to remove the bolt which i don't see as a problem. > > i also installed it this way and it ran fine and is still running > > fine 15,000 kms later so my plan is to do it again this way, making > > sure i use a new bolt with some locktite on it, the main reason for > > this is as you might have guess lack of money. i know the purists > > would say to make sure that i use the holder tool and such but i am > > just wondering are there any negative consequences to this?? as i > > said i haven't seen any after 15,000 kms is there anyone out there > > who has?? > > > > glenski - don't worry i already did my doohickey last time!! > > a14

[Glen]

how much is a "torque stick" and where would i be able to buy one here in canada?? that would seem like maybe a better purchase for me since it would be a more than one time use item, and i might be able to justify it if it attaches right on to the impact. i have heard about them before and have heard that they might be unreliable due to the nature of the impact pounding on them it might be that they would be very inaccurate over time?? glenski a14

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Conall" wrote: > > I agree with Fred, without a " torque stick" you really have no idea > how much torque you are applying with your air wrench. A torque stick > is commonly used by automotive garages when reinstalling wheel lug > nuts/bolts. > > They are rated for different torque ratings, are spring loaded > devices that will automatically stop tightening the bolts once the > torque value is reached. > Problem is torque sticks are not inexpensive. > Maybe a torque stick is an item you may want to be able to supply > Fred. > > Conall > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Hink" wrote: > > Negative consequences? How about that nagging little voice in the > back of > > your head saying "I wonder if that rotor bolt got tight enough and > if the > > flywheel is going to fly off" or "I wonder if that rotor bolt got > tightened > > too much and the rotor bolt breaks, letting the flywheel fly > off?". Since > > you don't know at what torque your electric impact wrench would > tighten this > > bolt, it may be the correct torque, too tight or not tight enough. > There > > lies the problem. If you could find out what torque your impact > wrench will > > work at, this might help silence those voices. > > > > Fred > > http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com > > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/cmc.html > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Glen" > > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:58 AM > > Subject: [DSN_klr650] engine rebuild - rotor removal > > > > > > > > > > > > > hey all, > > > > > > i just took the engine out of the frame for the second time!! it > is > > > a long story as to why but it basically comes down to not being > able > > > to afford a transmission part at the time and therefore > thinking "it > > > will be okay", BUT it isn't okay and i want to fix it when it is > > > cold not when it is sunny in the summer, since the riding season > is > > > so short around here. now to the question: last time i did the > > > rebuild i was sans rotor holder tool and such but what i used was > an > > > electric impact to remove the bolt which i don't see as a problem. > > > i also installed it this way and it ran fine and is still running > > > fine 15,000 kms later so my plan is to do it again this way, > making > > > sure i use a new bolt with some locktite on it, the main reason > for > > > this is as you might have guess lack of money. i know the purists > > > would say to make sure that i use the holder tool and such but i > am > > > just wondering are there any negative consequences to this?? as i > > > said i haven't seen any after 15,000 kms is there anyone out there > > > who has?? > > > > > > glenski - don't worry i already did my doohickey last time!! > > > a14

[Conall]

A real professional will use a torque stick to install the bolt, and then use a torque wrench to double check it. Why not just use a torque wrench? because using the air wrench first, saves time . if you are so busy that time equals money then that would come into play. But for the P/T wrench a torque wrench should be sufficient. Torque sticks only are accurate with air wrenches, if you use a torque stick with a breaker bar it is possible to overtighten the bolt. As far as price and sources, use google, to tell you the truth that is where i get most of my info. I think that they are built to last, thus there are not cheap, and shouldn't fall out of spec. Unless you are doing mil-spec work with auditors looking of your shoulder and demanding traceability back to metrology standards, I wouldn't worry about calibration. Cheers, Conall

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Glen" wrote: > > how much is a "torque stick" and where would i be able to buy one > here in canada?? that would seem like maybe a better purchase for > me since it would be a more than one time use item, and i might be > able to justify it if it attaches right on to the impact. i have > heard about them before and have heard that they might be unreliable > due to the nature of the impact pounding on them it might be that > they would be very inaccurate over time?? > > glenski > a14 > > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Conall" wrote: > > > > I agree with Fred, without a " torque stick" you really have no > idea > > how much torque you are applying with your air wrench. A torque > stick > > is commonly used by automotive garages when reinstalling wheel lug > > nuts/bolts. > > > > They are rated for different torque ratings, are spring loaded > > devices that will automatically stop tightening the bolts once the > > torque value is reached. > > Problem is torque sticks are not inexpensive. > > Maybe a torque stick is an item you may want to be able to supply > > Fred. > > > > Conall > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Hink" wrote: > > > Negative consequences? How about that nagging little voice in > the > > back of > > > your head saying "I wonder if that rotor bolt got tight enough > and > > if the > > > flywheel is going to fly off" or "I wonder if that rotor bolt > got > > tightened > > > too much and the rotor bolt breaks, letting the flywheel fly > > off?". Since > > > you don't know at what torque your electric impact wrench would > > tighten this > > > bolt, it may be the correct torque, too tight or not tight > enough. > > There > > > lies the problem. If you could find out what torque your impact > > wrench will > > > work at, this might help silence those voices. > > > > > > Fred > > > http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com > > > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/cmc.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Glen" > > > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 6:58 AM > > > Subject: [DSN_klr650] engine rebuild - rotor removal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hey all, > > > > > > > > i just took the engine out of the frame for the second time!! > it > > is > > > > a long story as to why but it basically comes down to not > being > > able > > > > to afford a transmission part at the time and therefore > > thinking "it > > > > will be okay", BUT it isn't okay and i want to fix it when it > is > > > > cold not when it is sunny in the summer, since the riding > season > > is > > > > so short around here. now to the question: last time i did > the > > > > rebuild i was sans rotor holder tool and such but what i used > was > > an > > > > electric impact to remove the bolt which i don't see as a > problem. > > > > i also installed it this way and it ran fine and is still > running > > > > fine 15,000 kms later so my plan is to do it again this way, > > making > > > > sure i use a new bolt with some locktite on it, the main > reason > > for > > > > this is as you might have guess lack of money. i know the > purists > > > > would say to make sure that i use the holder tool and such but > i > > am > > > > just wondering are there any negative consequences to this?? > as i > > > > said i haven't seen any after 15,000 kms is there anyone out > there > > > > who has?? > > > > > > > > glenski - don't worry i already did my doohickey last time!! > > > > a14

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 01:58:51PM -0000, Glen wrote:

> > > hey all, > > i just took the engine out of the frame for the second time!! it is > a long story as to why but it basically comes down to not being able > to afford a transmission part at the time and therefore thinking "it > will be okay", BUT it isn't okay and i want to fix it when it is > cold not when it is sunny in the summer, since the riding season is > so short around here. now to the question: last time i did the > rebuild i was sans rotor holder tool and such but what i used was an > electric impact to remove the bolt which i don't see as a problem.

I'm surprised you managed to get the bolt loose without some way to hold the rotor.

> i also installed it this way and it ran fine and is still running > fine 15,000 kms later so my plan is to do it again this way, making > sure i use a new bolt with some locktite on it, the main reason for > this is as you might have guess lack of money. i know the purists

How will you know how tight the bolt actually is if the rotor can move while you're tightening it? Tightening that bolt presses the rotor down onto a tapered shaft; how far it's pressed depends on hw tight the bolt is; and how *straight* it's pressed on will depend at least on getting some minimal amount of torque on that bolt. Clearly there is some tolerance for sloppy work here (probably quite a bit) but I would still not want to tighten it in a way that left me with no idea at all how tight it actually was. I don't think locktite on the threads will make much difference. I also wonder if it is really a good idea to use locktite on components inside the engine though I admit I'm not really sure how it could do much harm... Thor

[Krgrife@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/14/2004 10:39:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, tls@... writes: I'm surprised you managed to get the bolt loose without some way to hold the rotor. No holder need when using an impact wrench. I have removed rotors this way but use a trorque wrench when putting them back on. My local shop mechanic uses the air impact wrench to install the rotor but he has years of experience and knows the torque values of the impact wrench he is using. Kurt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Thor Lancelot Simon]

On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 02:09:57PM -0500, Krgrife@... wrote:

> > No holder need when using an impact wrench. I have removed rotors this way > but use a trorque wrench when putting them back on. My local shop mechanic > uses the air impact wrench to install the rotor but he has years of experience > and knows the torque values of the impact wrench he is using.

Again, I have to ask how it's actually _possible_ to know the actual torque value applied (by an impact wrench or otherwise) when the rotor is not held firmly in place. I definitely would not reinstall the rotor this way. -- Thor Lancelot Simon tls@... "The inconsistency is startling, though admittedly, if consistency is to be abandoned or transcended, there is no problem." - Noam Chomsky

[Krgrife@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/14/2004 11:22:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, tls@... writes: Again, I have to ask how it's actually _possible_ to know the actual torque value applied (by an impact wrench or otherwise) when the rotor is not held firmly in place. I definitely would not reinstall the rotor this way. As I posted, I use a torque wrench to reinstall the rotor. I think the mechanics who use impact wrenches daily get a pretty good feel for it but I certainly don't posess that skill level. Not trying to start another list pissing contest here, just reporting my experience. Kurt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[CA Stu]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 14, 2004 at 02:09:57PM -0500, Krgrife@a... wrote: > > > > No holder need when using an impact wrench. I have removed rotors

this way

> > but use a trorque wrench when putting them back on. My local shop

mechanic

> > uses the air impact wrench to install the rotor but he has years

of experience

> > and knows the torque values of the impact wrench he is using. > > Again, I have to ask how it's actually _possible_ to know the actual

torque

> value applied (by an impact wrench or otherwise) when the rotor is

not held

> firmly in place. I definitely would not reinstall the rotor this way. >

If you are anal retentive, every fastener on every vehicle in the world has an assigned torque value. If you aren't that meticulous, tightening fasteners by feel is good enough in 99.9% of mechanical maintenance. Exceptions in my mind are items like intake manifold bolts, crankshaft and cam related bolts, stuff like that. All the rotor bolt does is hold the rotor onto the end of the crankshaft, I don't think a few foot pounds either way will make a darn bit of difference. The wrench at my local shop told me the same thing. Impact wrench, no holder, just zaps it on there by feel. Of course what does he know, he's only maintained the city's fleet of cop bikes for umpty ump years, and does more repair and maintenance every day than most of us do in 6 months. Thanks CA Stu