blind post to penn carr

[Don Kime]

My A16 w/ 5k is mis-behaving. Seems KLR's are bent on enhancing my aging process, which is proceeding quite well with no help! Motor is cutting out on a totally intermittent/unpredictable basis. Rode 1200mi through Florida, and it ran fine for the first 300mi. On the next run I thought I could feel it cutting out some, but it didn't affect performance noticeably. On the next run, it began cutting out noticeably and was affecting performance, but I could still maintain 65mph. From then on, it oscillated through periods of running fine and cutting out, though the cutting out was never enough to drop the operating speed below 50mph. On the last run, about 220 mi, from near Naples to near Ocala it ran the 1st 100mi perfectly - very good power, like nothing was wrong. Left a stop light north of Lake Placid and it began cutting out. Had various degrees of stumble for the next 20+ miles. Then pulled away from a light and it ran as perfectly as it had for the 1st 100mi. Ran good for 40 or 50 miles. Again pulled away from a light, and it started cutting out. Did so for 3-5mi, then reverted to running fine. Ran fine the rest of the way to Ocala. You might be led to believe that stopping for a light was a key, but there were other times on the trip that it would start or stop cutting out while running along at a steady speed. In trying to diagnose, I first checked (because it was easy) and cleaned the air intake, but it was clean - that was not the problem. My mind then went to intermittent fuel starvation (perhaps venting or a blockage). On the last run to Ocala, once I got the fuel level down, I ran with the fuel cap open to assure it was not venting. The last incident of cutting out was w/ the cap open - it is not venting. The oner other clue is the exhaust - see http://pic8.picturetrail.com/VOL223/1365482/2600598/43907079.jpg If you notice in the pic, there is noticeable carbon on the rear fender, and the exhaust has actually melted the plastic fender a bit. BTW, the fender and muffler are in normal stock positions. This discoloration and melting were not on the fender prior to this trip. What this leads me to believe is that the cutting out is from an intermittent electrical problem. I'm theorizing that when it misses, there is unburnt gas in the exhaust, that is burning on exit and melting and discoloring the fender. What do you think? If it were lean (gas starvation), I don't think it would be discolored. From memory, lean makes the combustion chamber hot (no cooling from the atomized gas), but I don't think the exhaust would be enough hotter than normal to melt the plastic. All this leads me to intermittent electrical problem and unburnt gas. Where does it lead you? I need ideas. If it is intermittent electrical, where would you look for the culprit? If you've ever run w/ a plug cap loose, that's kind of what it runs like (when it does it), but the cap is tight. I'm just kind of stumped as to what electrical component would behave so fickle as this seems to. Any ideas appreciated. I'm going to start changing whatever makes the most sense (i've plenty of spares from an A15). I don't want to change just one thing and try it because it may take 100mi or more to know if I've solved it. I might be hunting all summer. Any ideas and inputs much appreciated - especially if you've experienced and solved anything related. What more could a bunch of gearheads (like me) want on a snowy winter day (in OH). TIA & Ride safe, Don Kime - VFR750F, GL1500SE, GL1100, KLR 650 OH - M/C Safety Instructor/RiderCoach dkime@... http://forums.delphiforums.com/MCTourer/

[bigfatgreenbike]

dkime@... wrote:

>Motor is cutting out on a totally intermittent/unpredictable basis. >

snip

> On >the last run to Ocala, once I got the fuel level down, I ran with the fuel >cap open to assure it was not venting. >

snip

>The oner other clue is the exhaust - see >http://pic8.picturetrail.com/VOL223/1365482/2600598/43907079.jpg >If you notice in the pic, there is noticeable carbon on the rear fender, >

Normal.

>and the exhaust has actually melted the plastic fender a bit. >

NOT normal.

>BTW, the >fender and muffler are in normal stock positions. This discoloration and >melting were not on the fender prior to this trip. What this leads me to >believe is that the cutting out is from an intermittent electrical >problem. >

snip

>Any ideas appreciated. >

Same guess you had. Ignition.

>I'm going to start changing whatever makes the most >sense (i've plenty of spares from an A15). I don't want to change just one >thing and try it because it may take 100mi or more to know if I've solved >it. I might be hunting all summer. >

If you have a spares bike, and don't mind not knowing the exact, precise problem, no problem. Since you didn't mention any problems with lighting, intermittent gauges, etc then I assume the charging system is OK, and with it the battery ground. Clean, grease, and retighten them anyway. You didn't mention what the tach does when the bike stops working right. Does the needle bounce or fall? does the tach read funny, or misbehave any way? The tach runs off the coil primary so if the tach works fine, that MIGHT narrow down the problem. First thing, I would replace the spark plug. Don't bother cleaning it or regapping it, just toss it and fit a new one. Examine it if it amuses you, but if the insulator's hairline-cracked it might only misfire at high temps. Use anti-seize on the plug thread. Replace the plug wire, the coil, and the CDI box. You can check the ignition coils with a meter, but this will only show you how the system is when cold. Open, clean, then grease every single electrical connection in the entire ignition system. Good luck, and please post your results. -- Devon Brooklyn, NY A15-Z '01 KLR650 '81 SR500 cafe racer "The truth's not too popular these days....." Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

[Stuart Mumford]

Hey Don, just a shot in the dark here, check the clear vent line that runs from the carb down behind the motor. The symptoms you mention sound exactly like what happens to a lot of KLRs in the wet. If the clear line gets blocked, even by a drop of water or two, the bike will cut out and fart exactly like what you describe. Was any of this run in wet weather or on wet roads? Also, I think that there is a good chance that the carbon and the rear fender melting may just be from prolonged high speed riding with the stock carb setup. Have you drilled out the plug on the bottom of the carb and richened it up? The only other thing that springs to mind is perhaps you have some wires pinched coming off the ignition. I've never heard of this on a KLR, but have on other bikes. Good luck and let us know what you find CA Stu

> -----Original Message----- > My A16 w/ 5k is mis-behaving. Seems KLR's are bent on enhancing my aging > process, which is proceeding quite well with no help! > > Motor is cutting out on a totally intermittent/unpredictable basis. Rode > 1200mi through Florida, and it ran fine for the first 300mi. > On the next > run I thought I could feel it cutting out some, but it didn't affect > performance noticeably. On the next run, it began cutting out noticeably > and was affecting performance, but I could still maintain 65mph. > From then > on, it oscillated through periods of running fine and cutting out, though > the cutting out was never enough to drop the operating speed below > 50mph. On the last run, about 220 mi, from near Naples to near Ocala it > ran the 1st 100mi perfectly - very good power, like nothing was > wrong. Left a stop light north of Lake Placid and it began cutting > out. Had various degrees of stumble for the next 20+ miles. Then pulled > away from a light and it ran as perfectly as it had for the 1st > 100mi. Ran > good for 40 or 50 miles. Again pulled away from a light, and it started > cutting out. Did so for 3-5mi, then reverted to running fine. Ran fine > the rest of the way to Ocala. You might be led to believe that stopping > for a light was a key, but there were other times on the trip > that it would > start or stop cutting out while running along at a steady speed. > > In trying to diagnose, I first checked (because it was easy) and cleaned > the air intake, but it was clean - that was not the problem. My > mind then > went to intermittent fuel starvation (perhaps venting or a blockage). On > the last run to Ocala, once I got the fuel level down, I ran with > the fuel > cap open to assure it was not venting. The last incident of cutting out > was w/ the cap open - it is not venting. > > The oner other clue is the exhaust - see > http://pic8.picturetrail.com/VOL223/1365482/2600598/43907079.jpg > If you notice in the pic, there is noticeable carbon on the rear fender, > and the exhaust has actually melted the plastic fender a bit. BTW, the > fender and muffler are in normal stock positions. This discoloration and > melting were not on the fender prior to this trip. What this leads me to > believe is that the cutting out is from an intermittent electrical > problem. I'm theorizing that when it misses, there is unburnt gas in the > exhaust, that is burning on exit and melting and discoloring the > fender. What do you think? If it were lean (gas starvation), I don't > think it would be discolored. From memory, lean makes the combustion > chamber hot (no cooling from the atomized gas), but I don't think the > exhaust would be enough hotter than normal to melt the plastic. All this > leads me to intermittent electrical problem and unburnt gas. > Where does it > lead you? I need ideas. If it is intermittent electrical, where > would you > look for the culprit? If you've ever run w/ a plug cap loose, > that's kind > of what it runs like (when it does it), but the cap is tight. I'm just > kind of stumped as to what electrical component would behave so fickle as > this seems to. > > Any ideas appreciated. I'm going to start changing whatever > makes the most > sense (i've plenty of spares from an A15). I don't want to > change just one > thing and try it because it may take 100mi or more to know if I've solved > it. I might be hunting all summer. > > Any ideas and inputs much appreciated - especially if you've experienced > and solved anything related. > > What more could a bunch of gearheads (like me) want on a snowy winter day > (in OH). > > TIA & > Ride safe, > Don Kime - VFR750F, GL1500SE, GL1100, KLR 650 > OH - M/C Safety Instructor/RiderCoach dkime@... > http://forums.delphiforums.com/MCTourer/ >

[Tengai Mark Van Horn]

At 5:44 PM -0500 1/25/04, Don Kime wrote:

>My A16 w/ 5k is mis-behaving. Seems KLR's are bent on enhancing my aging >process, which is proceeding quite well with no help! > >Motor is cutting out on a totally intermittent/unpredictable basis. Rode >1200mi through Florida, and it ran fine for the first 300mi. On the next >run I thought I could feel it cutting out some, but it didn't affect >performance noticeably. On the next run, it began cutting out noticeably >and was affecting performance, but I could still maintain 65mph. From then >on, it oscillated through periods of running fine and cutting out, though >the cutting out was never enough to drop the operating speed below >50mph......

I'm thinking you have a slight or intermittent/erratic petcock vacuum leak leading to occasional fuel starvation. Mark

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-01-25 2:45:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, dkime@... writes:

> > Any ideas appreciated. I'm going to start changing whatever makes the most > sense (i've plenty of spares from an A15). I don't want to change just one > thing and try it because it may take 100mi or more to know if I've solved > it. I might be hunting all summer. > > Any ideas and inputs much appreciated - especially if you've experienced > and solved anything related. > > What more could a bunch of gearheads (like me) want on a snowy winter day > (in OH). > > TIA & > Ride safe, > Don Kime - VFR750F, GL1500SE, GL1100, KLR 650 > OH - M/C Safety Instructor/RiderCoach dkime@... > http://forums.delphiforums.com/MCTourer/ > >

Vacuum line to the petcock, problem with ignition pickup - possibly showing as result of heat cycles, or the black box. I'd look for the problems in that order. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Kime]

At 06:22 PM 1/25/04 -0500, bigfatgreenbike wrote:

> >and the exhaust has actually melted the plastic fender a bit. > > >NOT normal. > > >Any ideas appreciated. > > >Same guess you had. Ignition. > > >I'm going to start changing whatever makes the most > >sense (i've plenty of spares from an A15). I don't want to change just one > >thing and try it because it may take 100mi or more to know if I've solved > >it. I might be hunting all summer. > > >If you have a spares bike, and don't mind not knowing the exact, precise >problem, no problem. >Since you didn't mention any problems with lighting, intermittent >gauges, etc then I assume the charging system is OK, and with it the >battery ground. Clean, grease, and retighten them anyway. > >You didn't mention what the tach does when the bike stops working right. >Does the needle bounce or fall? does the tach read funny, or misbehave >any way? The tach runs off the coil primary so if the tach works fine, >that MIGHT narrow down the problem.

Excellent thoughts, and I wish you had been on pillion to mention them at the time! I was paying attention to speed and didn't specifically look at the tach. I don't think the tach was going completely erratic or I would have noticed, but I can't be sure. I was with a group for all of this, and no one mentioned any light mis-behavior. I think they would have as they were all somewhat focused on the problem. I had a large tank bag on, and I couldn't see the indicator lights w/out a specific effort. I do know that the turn signals were working normally even as it was cutting out. I wish I had focused on the tach, but "water over the dam."

>First thing, I would replace the spark plug. Don't bother cleaning it or >regapping it, just toss it and fit a new one. Examine it if it amuses >you, but if the insulator's hairline-cracked it might only misfire at >high temps. Use anti-seize on the plug thread. Replace the plug wire, >the coil, and the CDI box. You can check the ignition coils with a >meter, but this will only show you how the system is when cold. Open, >clean, then grease every single electrical connection in the entire >ignition system.

You are reinforcing what I was thinking. Two heads are better than one - thanks!

>Good luck, and please post your results. >-- >Devon

Thanks again for the thoughtful answer. Just what I needed. I'll definitely post both what I do and the results - though it may be awhile before Ohio weather is conducive to a decent test Ride safe, Don Kime - VFR750F, GL1500SE, GL1100, KLR 650 OH - M/C Safety Instructor/RiderCoach dkime@... http://forums.delphiforums.com/MCTourer/

[Don Kime]

At 04:16 PM 1/25/04 -0800, Stuart Mumford wrote:

> >Hey Don, just a shot in the dark here, check the clear vent line that runs >from the carb down behind the motor. The symptoms you mention sound exactly >like what happens to a lot of KLRs in the wet. If the clear line gets >blocked, even by a drop of water or two, the bike will cut out and fart >exactly like what you describe. Was any of this run in wet weather or on wet >roads?

Stuart, thanks much for responding. As all this was happening, your mind is racing back through everything you've ever heard or thought of. The vent line came to mind. I did check it thoroughly one evening (w/out disassembly), and it looked good and clean. Fortunately, the entire week in FL was "uncharacteristially" moisture-free.

>Also, I think that there is a good chance that the carbon and the rear >fender melting may just be from prolonged high speed riding with the stock >carb setup. Have you drilled out the plug on the bottom of the carb and >richened it up?

I have not done this - it runs so well when it's happy, that I've been reluctant to mess w/ success. The melted plastic to me more says excess fuel (electrical cutout) than it says lean. If anyone sees this differently, I'd be interested in hearing.

>The only other thing that springs to mind is perhaps you have some wires >pinched coming off the ignition. I've never heard of this on a KLR, but have >on other bikes.

This triggered one thought - more would be dangerous! I was experimenting w/ (2) different seats on this ride. The problem occurred only after the 2nd seat was installed. I'm just wondering if I might have pinched something when changing seats - the wiring under the seat always looks a bit precarious. I will check this thoroughly.

>Good luck and let us know what you find >CA Stu

Thanks, Stu, and I will definitely get back to the list. Ride safe, Don Kime - VFR750F, GL1500SE, GL1100, KLR 650 OH - M/C Safety Instructor/RiderCoach dkime@... http://forums.delphiforums.com/MCTourer/

[Don Kime]

At 08:10 PM 1/25/04 -0500, Tengai Mark Van Horn wrote:

>At 5:44 PM -0500 1/25/04, Don Kime wrote: >>My A16 w/ 5k is mis-behaving. Seems KLR's are bent on enhancing my aging >>process, which is proceeding quite well with no help! >> >>Motor is cutting out on a totally intermittent/unpredictable basis. Rode >>1200mi through Florida, and it ran fine for the first 300mi. On the next >>run I thought I could feel it cutting out some, but it didn't affect >>performance noticeably. On the next run, it began cutting out noticeably >>and was affecting performance, but I could still maintain 65mph. From then >>on, it oscillated through periods of running fine and cutting out, though >>the cutting out was never enough to drop the operating speed below >>50mph...... > > >I'm thinking you have a slight or intermittent/erratic petcock vacuum leak >leading to occasional fuel starvation. >Mark

Thanks very much for responding, Mark. This thought came to my mind (along w/ zillions of others!). One evening, I checked the vacuum line by feel for it's entire length and could find nothing. I will check this completely when I disassemble. The more I thought, the more I went away from this as the melted plastic on the fender to me says "unburnt fuel in the exhaust - electrical problem", but I'm not an expert and I appreciate every idea. Thanks again & Ride safe, Don Kime - VFR750F, GL1500SE, GL1100, KLR 650 OH - M/C Safety Instructor/RiderCoach dkime@... http://forums.delphiforums.com/MCTourer/

[Don Kime]

At 08:41 AM 1/26/04 -0500, KDXKawboy@... wrote:

>Vacuum line to the petcock, problem with ignition pickup - possibly >showing as result of heat cycles, or the black box. I'd look for the >problems in that order. > >Pat >G'ville, Nv

Pat, thanks much for your input. Each of these was on "my list", and I'm getting the reinforcement I needed and that will hopefully solve this thing. I will provide feedback when..... Thanks again & Ride safe, Don Kime - VFR750F, GL1500SE, GL1100, KLR 650 OH - M/C Safety Instructor/RiderCoach dkime@... http://forums.delphiforums.com/MCTourer/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[ronnie lyons]

Penn: I tried to email you regarding the carb mods you did to your bike, but it bounced for some reason. Can you tell me more about which spring you installed on the slide, and what jet sizes you stepped up to? I'm interested in doing this to my '02, as I believe I'm running a little lean (spark knock under load when it's hot) and it sounds like you've struck a happy medium between torque and mileage. Thanks! Ronnie Lyons --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]