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DSN_KLR650
Conall
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:02 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Conall » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:59 pm

Eric, I said it once and I'll say it again, in other words. The media reports of incompetence and people playing the blame game is just a whitewash of the fact that this is another real world test case to see how the american populace react . If the powers to be get away with taking all this prime coastal property from weak hands, give it to strong hands ( remember the supreme court recently ruled that corporations can relieve private property owners of their land if it is in the best interest of the community.(I'll bet you they only pay pennies on the dollar. ) Can't get people to leave beacause of flooding, no problem we'll pollute the crap out of the area. Gov won't allow the feds to evict people, no problem we'll send in Hitler in a Bunker to strong arm her. If they get away with this look for a similar type scenario in Harlem NY, that real estate is much to valuable to be held by such weak hands. Remember, people first laughed at Hitler, saying he never could rise to power. But then Hermann Goering set fire to the Reichstag and dictatorial powers were granted to Hitler. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go to the local bookstore and reshelve George Orwells book "1984" from the fiction & literature section to the History section. Bless my parents for sending me to a school were we studied this book in depth. Conall- --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric L. Green" wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, scott quillen wrote: > > What upsets me the most is the finger-pointing at the federal
government
> > while many seem quick to forgive those who REALLY dropped the ball - > > city/county/state officials - those with PRIMARY responsibility to
care
> > for those in their immediate vicinity. > > Err, when people are dying and FEMA has control of the resources to
help
> them, I don't give a flying flip about legal BS. FEMA had the
resources,
> and refused to use them for FOUR DAYS because, get this, THE EFFIN' > PAPERWORK HAD NOT COME THROUGH. My god, what kind of ANIMAL gives a
****
> about legal bull**** when people are dying? What kind of ANIMAL whines > that somehow it's the LOCAL people who are responsible for FEMA
hijacking
> their resources at gunpoint and diverting them... well, we still don't > know where FEMA sent Parish President Broussard's water and generators > that they hijacked at GUNPOINT at the Department and turned around and > sent them to FEMA warehouses in Baton Rouge because, get this,
"Jefferson
> Parish hasn't filed the proper paperwork that says they need this > assistance." This was stuff that Parish President Broussard had ordered > because he was on the ground and he KNEW what his people needed, and
FEMA
> *TURNED IT AWAY! AT GUNPOINT!* > > Tell me this is the local people's fault again. Tell me that. How
the ****
> are they supposed to help their local people when FEMA is *STEALING
THEIR
> SUPPLIES!* My God, Parish President Broussard even had to post an
*ARMED
> GUARD* on his communications lines because, get this, FEMA was upset
that
> he'd ordered those supplies for his people without filing the proper > paperwork, and they CUT HIS COMMUNICATIONS LINES! > > And this was Parish President Broussard's fault?! > > Help was trying to get in. People were trying to bring supplies in for > those people, once they learned that those people were trapped in New > Orleans. The American Red Cross, EVERY DAY, on the Mayor of New
Orleans's
> request, was requesting from FEMA that they be allowed to bring in food > and water and portable toilets for the people trapped in New
Orleans. And
> FEMA WOULD NOT LET THEM IN, FEMA told them that no, they didn't have
the
> proper paperwork showing that a request had been made for the
assistance
> and thus they couldn't get in. And because there was only one way
for aid
> to get into New Orleans, only one road that was above water, the Red
Cross
> couldn't just say "f*** FEMA, we're going in", because, get this,
FEMA had
> a CHECKPOINT on that one road, staffed by Department of Homeland
Security
> agents, and was turning away assistance *AT GUNPOINT*. > > But this is all the victim's fault because, well, the victims, not FEMA, > turned that help away... > > That's wrong. That's just so wrong. So wrong in so many ways. I've
heard
> stories now from THREE PARISHES where they were trying to take care of > their people, and where assistance they tried to bring in for their > people, water and food and generators and other supplies, were
HIJACKED AT
> GUNPOINT by Department of Homeland Security goons because FEMA had > "detirmined that these materials are more needed elsewhere". As far
as I
> know, all that happened was that those materials ended up in
warehouses in
> Baton Rouge until "a proper request on the proper form has been > submitted". My GOD, this is the LOCALS' fault? That water and food and > generators and other supplies that they've ordered are being
HIJACKED by
> the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?! > > I do agree with you on one thing: Governor Kathleen Blanco bears
primary
> responsibility for all this. She should have set up a coordination
office
> outside of FEMA (never mind that federal law and Presidential decree
set
> up FEMA as the coordinating agency) and when FEMA started
interfering with
> the ability of local governments to provide for their own, she
should have
> dispatched the Louisiana State Police to escort the aid to where it was > needed and arrest the DHS agents who were turning the assistance
away. She
> should have told those federal GOONS to get out of her state, and then > taken care of her people with the generous assistance that was
pouring in
> from around the nation. As my mother put it from where she now is on
high
> ground in Pineville, yes, the state got jacked around by the feds, but > Blanco let them do it, and Blanco won't get re-elected. But as far
as the
> local guys go? In my book, they are ALL heros. They didn't abandon the > ship. They were right there, fighting with everything they had, doing > their best to care for their people. Blaming them because FEMA
turned away
> the help they needed to care for their people because some BS form
hadn't
> been filled out in triplicate... that's just wrong. Just plain wrong. > > -E

a14@att.net
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:06 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by a14@att.net » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:21 pm

Yea, and they knew all about what was going to happen on 9/11/01 but allowed it in order to get support from the American public to invade the middle east all because Bush wants the oil. And another thing, we never made it to the moon as it was all done in a studio. Where's my foil hat? Walt -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Conall"
> Eric, I said it once and I'll say it again, in other words. The media > reports of incompetence and people playing the blame game is just a > whitewash of the fact that this is another real world test case to see > how the american populace react . If the powers to be get away with > taking all this prime coastal property from weak hands, give it to > strong hands ( remember the supreme court recently ruled that > corporations can relieve private property owners of their land if it > is in the best interest of the community.(I'll bet you they only pay > pennies on the dollar. ) > Can't get people to leave beacause of flooding, no problem we'll > pollute the crap out of the area. > Gov won't allow the feds to evict people, no problem we'll send in > Hitler in a Bunker to strong arm her. > If they get away with this look for a similar type scenario in Harlem > NY, that real estate is much to valuable to be held by such weak hands. > Remember, people first laughed at Hitler, saying he never could rise > to power. But then Hermann Goering set fire to the Reichstag and > dictatorial powers were granted to Hitler. > > Now if you'll excuse me I need to go to the local bookstore and > reshelve George Orwells book "1984" from the fiction & literature > section to the History section. Bless my parents for sending me to a > school were we studied this book in depth. > > Conall- > >

Conall
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:02 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Conall » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:32 pm

You said it not me. :^) Conall
--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, a14@a... wrote: > Yea, and they knew all about what was going to happen on 9/11/01 but allowed it in order to get support from the American public to invade the middle east all because Bush wants the oil. >

Conall
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:02 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Conall » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:37 pm

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, a14@a... wrote:
> Yea, and they knew all about what was going to happen on 9/11/01 but
allowed it in order to get support from the American public to invade the middle east all because Bush wants the oil.
> >
Operation Northwoods http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/ In his new expos of the National Security Agency entitled Body of Secrets, author James Bamford highlights a set of proposals on Cuba by the Joint Chiefs of Staff codenamed OPERATION NORTHWOODS. This document, titled "Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba" was provided by the JCS to Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara on March 13, 1962, as the key component of Northwoods. Written in response to a request from the Chief of the Cuba Project, Col. Edward Lansdale, the Top Secret memorandum describes U.S. plans to covertly engineer various pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. These proposals - part of a secret anti-Castro program known as Operation Mongoose - included staging the assassinations of Cubans living in the United States, developing a fake "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington," including "sink[ing] a boatload of Cuban refugees (real or simulated)," faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner, and concocting a "Remember the Maine" incident by blowing up a U.S. ship in Cuban waters and then blaming the incident on Cuban sabotage. Bamford himself writes that Operation Northwoods "may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government."

sbcglobal
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:47 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by sbcglobal » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:47 pm

Knowledge = power. Anybody that believes that Bush - or the US - is behind the oil pricing and control strategies is sorely mistaken. Basically, the world is a company store for the extra-national, major oil company, controlling interests. Read Brotherhood of Oil by Robert Engler (October 1985). It's a relatively old book, but little has changed since it was written... Chuck
----- Original Message ----- From: Conall To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 11:31 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR Katrina response You said it not me. :^) Conall --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, a14@a... wrote: > Yea, and they knew all about what was going to happen on 9/11/01 but allowed it in order to get support from the American public to invade the middle east all because Bush wants the oil. > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Eric L. Green
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 1:41 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Eric L. Green » Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:47 pm

On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, scott quillen wrote:
> Blake, > > GREAT post! Thanks for the info :^)
Thanks for the info indeed. If it is true that the state Department of Homeland Security turned away Red Cross aid after the water started rising and it became clear that the people in the Superdome and Convention Center would be stranded there for days, then heads need to roll. That is not clear from the story in question. Actually, I suspect that heads have *already* rolled, because James Lee Witt got hired Friday by Blanco to take over the state DHS. You might remember him. FEMA director under President Bill Clinton? 20 years experience handling disasters at FEMA?
> Blake Sobiloff wrote: > Breaking news from : > > Red Cross Barred From Super Dome and Convention Center? > > According to Hugh Hewitt, Major Garrett of Fox News is reporting that
Finally, Fox News is not credible. Neither is CNN, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, etc... All they care about is ratings, not truth. I've already caught them numerous times reporting rumors as truth, such as when they reported that the mayor of New Orleans had ordered that food and water not be given to people who refused to evacuate in order to force them to leave. It wasn't true, Mayor Nagin even called a press conference to say it wasn't true, but they published the rumor as truth without even asking Mayor Nagin whether it was true. That's just one example. Check out http://www.nola.com and http://www.wll.com if you want to find out what's happening in the New Orleans area right now, they have the actual first-hand reports from evacuees, the actual first-hand reports from local officials, etc. They're not immune to reporting rumors, but they tend to correct themselves fast because the people who actually know call them and tell them they're wrong, and they don't have a bunch of "screeners" to stop that from happening the way that the national guys do. -Eric

Svantwuyver
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:02 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Svantwuyver » Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:12 pm

Americans can't be too proud of the initial response to this natural disaster. If the tables were turned and a disaster occured in your location, you can only be hope that the response would be a lot faster. This disaster has shown how poorly governments can function at their primary job of protecting its citizens. It seems very un American that so many are finding fault with those victimized by this situation. Add a little polarizing footage of a few looters and print some crime stories and a many Americans turn their back on those that are victimized. Most are poor without much hope and now realizing that many Americans don't care. I know a few still do care. -svt- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

ron criswell
Posts: 1118
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2000 5:09 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by ron criswell » Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:33 pm

The world is flat and so is my beer. Criswell
On Thursday, September 8, 2005, at 11:21 AM, a14@... wrote: > Yea, and they knew all about what was going to happen on 9/11/01 but > allowed it in order to get support from the American public to invade > the middle east all because Bush wants the oil. > > And another thing, we never made it to the moon as it was all done in > a studio. > > Where's my foil hat? > > Walt > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Conall" >> Eric, I said it once and I'll say it again, in other words. The media >> reports of incompetence and people playing the blame game is just a >> whitewash of the fact that this is another real world test case to see >> how the american populace react . If the powers to be get away with >> taking all this prime coastal property from weak hands, give it to >> strong hands ( remember the supreme court recently ruled that >> corporations can relieve private property owners of their land if it >> is in the best interest of the community.(I'll bet you they only pay >> pennies on the dollar. ) >> Can't get people to leave beacause of flooding, no problem we'll >> pollute the crap out of the area. >> Gov won't allow the feds to evict people, no problem we'll send in >> Hitler in a Bunker to strong arm her. >> If they get away with this look for a similar type scenario in Harlem >> NY, that real estate is much to valuable to be held by such weak >> hands. >> Remember, people first laughed at Hitler, saying he never could rise >> to power. But then Hermann Goering set fire to the Reichstag and >> dictatorial powers were granted to Hitler. >> >> Now if you'll excuse me I need to go to the local bookstore and >> reshelve George Orwells book "1984" from the fiction & literature >> section to the History section. Bless my parents for sending me to a >> school were we studied this book in depth. >> >> Conall- >> >> > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Mike Frey
Posts: 833
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:53 am

nklr katrina response

Post by Mike Frey » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:24 pm

I'll defend Eric, even though I do not fully agree with him (with this subject as well as other posts). He has an emotional attachment to Louisiana. He is normally a wealth of knowledge and is also usually correct with presented facts, KLR related or otherwise. I don't think that he and I have the same political party affiliations, but that's OK too. I am always willing to listen to what the "other side" has to say. To refuse to do so is ignorance. When the investigations are completed and the facts presented, responsible parties should be held accountable - the whole way from the federal level down to individual citizens - and everywhere in between. Unfortunately, I foresee finger pointing and blame well beyond this future stage. Even after investigations, hearings, committees, tribunals, and possibly even trials, there will be many who will say "He / She / They got away with a crime". This will happen whether He / She / They is Republican or Democrat, white or black. In the end, that doesn't matter. We're all Americans. I'll keep reading the NKLR posts. When I can contribute knowledge, I will. I might even insert an opinion in from time to time. I guess I just did. When the next 7.5 hits a populated area of the west coast - or Missouri - I hope that WE all do a better job with recovery efforts.

Jim
Posts: 1560
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:15 am

nklr katrina response

Post by Jim » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:23 pm

Erik, Perhaps because of your proximity to this tragedy, your reasoning is clouded by emotion. Step back and look at this again in light of your own words.
> them, I don't give a flying flip about legal BS.
First understand we are a nation of laws and whether you give a "flying flip" about them makes no difference. The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid, that is a fact. FEMA had the resources,
> and refused to use them for FOUR DAYS because, get this, THE EFFIN' > But this is all the victim's fault because, well, the victims, not FEMA.
I listened to a NO scanner channel on Tuesday evening and heard a trucker loaded (truck and trailer) with MREs ask the local NO dispatch for directions to the superdome THREE times in the course of an hour. He repeated each time his cargo and requested directions to the SD and for an escort. Three times the gal on the radio said "OK just a minute" and never answered back again. That disgusted me, and now I understand the city officials knowingly did not move food and water to the SD in order to discourage any more refugees moving on site as they were already overwhelmed. If you want to get angy over missmanagment and needless suffering include this also.
> That's wrong. That's just so wrong. So wrong in so many ways. > Baton Rouge until "a proper request on the proper form has been > submitted". My GOD, this is the LOCALS' fault?
Local leaders, YES. If citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request, see above.
> I do agree with you on one thing: Governor Kathleen Blanco bears
primary responsibility for all this. We agree on this. History will prove her incompetent during this disaster.
>But as far as the > local guys go? In my book, they are ALL heros. They didn't abandon the > ship. They were right there, fighting with everything they had, doing > their best to care for their people.
If you are refering to the local law enforcment that did not resign and walk off I would agree they payed it forward for sure. But if you are trying to include local pols in this then we disagree. Louisiana has a history of poor management and misuse of FEMA funds, including a suspected conspiracy by three top officials at the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness involving misspent funds for flood-prone homes. In March, FEMA demanded that Louisiana repay $30.4 million in flood and hazard mitigation grants awarded to 23 parishes between 1997 and 2002. Last year, a federal grand jury in Shreveport indicted three top officials in the New Orleans agency on charges of obstructing an investigation into how federal money was spent to buy flood-prone homes. I also hope you do not include the mayor because if so you are plain wrong on this also. The mayor of New Orleans is coming under increasing fire for exacerbating the disaster by not properly implementing his city's emergency-management plan. Have you read the plan Eric? The New Orleans contingency plan is still posted on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored. Why was it not followed? Does that help the people? Simple answer, no, while he cried people died and the 10,000 people expected to have died is less the number of people who could have been removed before the storm with the public busses that now sit underwater, that is a fact, no emotion. Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done. One other fact is that people refuse even now to be evacuated and they refused to leave when told to evacuate. If you are going to tell me they had no way out then reread the previous paragraph. I heard someone remark in previous storms, when folks had refused to leave, that officials handed out marking pens and requested that they write their social security # on there body for positive ID. Perhaps that would have been enough for some to rethink their position of "riding it out". I hope when all the information is in that you Eric and others tangled up in this emotional tragedy can rationally examine the where it all went wrong despite years of warnings and exhaustive contingency plans. --Jim (sitting around the campfire talking) A-15

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