TC Rear window

[Michael Card]

Viv, and also Nicola, Joe, Norm, and Russ Norm Wetzel has kindly measured his single-window Moss top. [I assume that this is a Moss USA one.] Viv, since yours is Moss UK and a double-window, it would be interesting to tabulate the differences. Nic Parolin and Joe Bernert have also kindly said that they would measure their Mike Collingburn tops. Similarly Russ Jacobson is going to dig out his old EXU top and measure it too. [Russ does not know yet if it is original equipment or not.] I will summarise these data in some form of table and mail this to the list. We might be able to start some sort of data base on weather equipment. [I am travelling on business two weeks from Monday, and my new replacement laptop and modem are not yet tested outside UK. So if I do not reply to your measurement information in this period, please understand.] I cannot contribute anything to the matters of colour, material, or the twin-to-single window change-over date. On these points [like so many other points] I am using Mike Sherrell's book as my guide. Mike Card TC/8233. PS On a related point, I know that some other list members have J2s to restore. My J2 basket case [still in boxes] came with what HAS to be an original hood, so it may be of use for archaeological studies, at some time.

----- Original Message ----- From: vivj@iafrica.com To: mg-tabc@egroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 5:50 AM Subject: [mg-tabc] Rear Window
Mike Card's question about rear window dimensions is a good one.

Also of interest would be opinions about when the change took
place as well as when or if black changed to tan.

I've used a black Moss UK double rear window on TC2459 and I am
trying to decide what to use on TC4427 - probably tan with double
window. Mike Sherrell is not clear on any of this - he is very honest
about the uncertainty!

Mike, I can measure the Moss one tonight or over the weekend for
you if this will help. We have a concours on Sunday that requires
raised soft tops.

Viv James

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[PMS GB Ltd]

Message text written by "Michael Card"

>Viv, and also Nicola, Joe, Norm, and Russ Norm Wetzel has

kindly measured his single-window Moss top.<

But what makes us thing that Moss makes the hoods to the correct
dimensions - Most replacement parts are off spec in some way!

There are some original works photos of the TA with hood up,
and possibly others of the TC - It would be more accurate to
scale up and measure one of these photos if anyone has one available,
to check these modern measurements.

Can anyone help?

Clive Sherriff

[PMS GB Ltd]

Further to my casting doubts on the correctness of any modern reproduction
hood, and my suggestion of using an original photo for the hood dimensions
- I've found one - well two in fact!! (pages 156/7 of The Art of Abingdon,
and page 21 of the Immortal T Series) from which measurements could be
taken, adjusted for the angle of the photo and the angle of the hood and
hey Presto -- TC Window dimensions as on one original car at least!!!!

The car in the photos is an unregistered TC at the works with the hood
raised. Photos from direct front and direct rear looking just slightly
downwards.

I'm not being pedantic about these dimensions - but I'll give them as
probably intended, and also in brackets, just as they calculated out,
allowing for hood and photo angles- no doubt in 1940's practice - 3.98
inches on the hood was 4 on the drawing!

The two windows are symmetrical to each other, naturally, but not to
themselves, and are each 12.5 (12.53) inches long - the horizontal distance
between the windows is 2 3/8 (2.39) inches. Where they meet at the centre
there are two 1.5 (1.5) inch radii corners top and bottom, with a short
(about1 inch) vertical section between them which is almost straight, but
looks to curve, just a bit, into the centre of the hood, as one would
expect from the manufacturing process - whilst at the outside of the car
the whole curve is almost a semi circle, but the two photo views do show
the top half of the curve to be a greater radius than the bottom. Sketching
this out I estimate the top curve to be about 2.25 inch radius, joining
directly into the bottom curve of about 1.75 inch radius. The actual height
of each opening is 4 (3.98) inch and the top is parallel to the bottom.
The bottom edge of the window is 5 3/8 (5.374) inches from the lowest edge
of the hood above the fuel tank. There is a first row of stitching at
about 1/8 to (0.20) inch from the window, another at 1 1/8 (1.125) inch
from the window, though these stitching distances vary at different points
around the window - manufacturing variations again.

I have also looked at other 1930's and 1940's photos of TA, TB and TC
showing the hoods erected, and the above non symmetrical dimensions are
consistent with these other period TA and TB photos. The TC sales brochures
of the period contain small photos consistent with the above, and also
drawn artwork illustrations of TCs with hoods up, but these drawings all
show symmetrical windows with about 1.5 inch radii corners and straight
sections between - this squareness and symmetry is NOT reflected in any
photo I have found.

I also noticed also a photo of an early TD (no holes in the wheels and an
unregistered car) this hood had the top two corners round, but the bottom
two look to be not a quadrant of a circle, but seems to have a large radius
curve on the vertical edge, becoming increasingly of smaller radius as the
horizontal base of the widow is reached a sort of curving J shape. Are they
all like this - as I remember getting a new original TD hood with a lot of
other T Parts some years ago, and writing this observation off as a
manufacturing oddity. The design style of the TD windows would clearly
seem to be different to the fairly constant radii used on the previous cars
windows.

Well hope all that helps a bit - No-one got an original hood anywhere???

Clive Sherriff

[Michael Card]

Clive You must have been busy with scales and calculator today! I know those two photos - they are also on pp 32-33 of the NEMGTR T-Type Restoration Handbook. Your scaled measurements will be great until someone finds an original two-window hood to measure. Dean Jensen may be the man, it seems. Unfortunately I was unable to find a similar photo of the rear of a late, single-window, hood to scale from, for my planned single-window hood. Without such a photo and in the absence [so far] of anyone on the list knowing of an original single-window hood to measure, taking dimensions from Moss and Mike Collingburn is all that is available. Of course we do not know where their dimensions came from, and they may be correct or they may not. However I will use these measurements unless some better information turns up. Perhaps if we tabulate all the measurements we can get - reproductions or not - we may see a pattern emerge. Incidentally the fellow who is going to do my single-window hood has been making T-Type hoods for decades [he is retired now but does one or two a year] and he tells me that he has "the dimensions" for the two-window TC hood but not for the single. Wonder where he got the former from? Mike Card TC/8233 Damn cold here today, but warmed up to 2C for a while.

----- Original Message ----- From: 100070.740@compuserve.com To: mg-tabc@egroups.com Cc: 100070.740@compuserve.com ; sales@trax.co.za ; mike.card@mcmg.freeserve.co.uk Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 2:15 PM Subject: [mg-tabc] Re: TC Rear Window
Further to my casting doubts on the correctness of any modern reproduction
hood, and my suggestion of using an original photo for the hood dimensions
- I've found one - well two in fact!! (pages 156/7 of The Art of Abingdon,
and page 21 of the Immortal T Series) from which measurements could be
taken, adjusted for the angle of the photo and the angle of the hood and
hey Presto -- TC Window dimensions as on one original car at least!!!!

The car in the photos is an unregistered TC at the works with the hood
raised. Photos from direct front and direct rear looking just slightly
downwards.

I'm not being pedantic about these dimensions - but I'll give them as
probably intended, and also in brackets, just as they calculated out,
allowing for hood and photo angles- no doubt in 1940's practice - 3.98
inches on the hood was 4 on the drawing!

The two windows are symmetrical to each other, naturally, but not to
themselves, and are each 12.5 (12.53) inches long - the horizontal distance
between the windows is 2 3/8 (2.39) inches. Where they meet at the centre
there are two 1.5 (1.5) inch radii corners top and bottom, with a short
(about1 inch) vertical section between them which is almost straight, but
looks to curve, just a bit, into the centre of the hood, as one would
expect from the manufacturing process - whilst at the outside of the car
the whole curve is almost a semi circle, but the two photo views do show
the top half of the curve to be a greater radius than the bottom. Sketching
this out I estimate the top curve to be about 2.25 inch radius, joining
directly into the bottom curve of about 1.75 inch radius. The actual height
of each opening is 4 (3.98) inch and the top is parallel to the bottom.
The bottom edge of the window is 5 3/8 (5.374) inches from the lowest edge
of the hood above the fuel tank. There is a first row of stitching at
about 1/8 to (0.20) inch from the window, another at 1 1/8 (1.125) inch
from the window, though these stitching distances vary at different points
around the window - manufacturing variations again.

I have also looked at other 1930's and 1940's photos of TA, TB and TC
showing the hoods erected, and the above non symmetrical dimensions are
consistent with these other period TA and TB photos. The TC sales brochures
of the period contain small photos consistent with the above, and also
drawn artwork illustrations of TCs with hoods up, but these drawings all
show symmetrical windows with about 1.5 inch radii corners and straight
sections between - this squareness and symmetry is NOT reflected in any
photo I have found.

I also noticed also a photo of an early TD (no holes in the wheels and an
unregistered car) this hood had the top two corners round, but the bottom
two look to be not a quadrant of a circle, but seems to have a large radius
curve on the vertical edge, becoming increasingly of smaller radius as the
horizontal base of the widow is reached a sort of curving J shape. Are they
all like this - as I remember getting a new original TD hood with a lot of
other T Parts some years ago, and writing this observation off as a
manufacturing oddity. The design style of the TD windows would clearly
seem to be different to the fairly constant radii used on the previous cars
windows.

Well hope all that helps a bit - No-one got an original hood anywhere???

Clive Sherriff

[Russ Jacobson]

Mike,
I pulled out my top and unfolded it today. The window is
rectangular and measures 33.5 inches wide by 11.0 inches high. It has
square corners. It is in pretty bad shape so it's hard to tell what
color it was. It seems to be an "off white" color. Perhaps the "fawn"
that has been mentioned in earlier mail. I can't find any way to tell
if it is the original top. The workmanship was very good. I would say
much better than the repro top I bought to replace it with.
Historical pictures could perhaps establish whether or not the size
is in the "ball park" for the late TC. I hope when all the info you are
receiving comes together the truth will emerge.

Regards,
Russ J.

[Michael Card]

Russ My thanks for doing that. I am pretty sure that you have a reproduction top, or an original with a newer window. Those dimensions sound much too big to me for a late 1940s rear window. But it is interesting in that it shows how thinking on repairs and restorations changed over the years. [I remember putting a black vinyl hood on a TC in the late 1960s, with a large rear window so that I could see out from the inside mirror - three, or maybe four, restoration errors which would get me a reprimand these days.] Thanks again Mike Card

----- Original Message ----- From: russj@enol.com To: mike.card@mcmgfreeserve.co.uk Cc: mg-tabc@egroups.com Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 1:45 AM Subject: [mg-tabc] TC Rear Window
Mike,
I pulled out my top and unfolded it today. The window is
rectangular and measures 33.5 inches wide by 11.0 inches high. It has
square corners. It is in pretty bad shape so it's hard to tell what
color it was. It seems to be an "off white" color. Perhaps the "fawn"
that has been mentioned in earlier mail. I can't find any way to tell
if it is the original top. The workmanship was very good. I would say
much better than the repro top I bought to replace it with.
Historical pictures could perhaps establish whether or not the size
is in the "ball park" for the late TC. I hope when all the info you are
receiving comes together the truth will emerge.

Regards,
Russ J.


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[Bob and Carolyn Grunau]

Interesting details of the two window tops for early TCs. IMHO before
everyone rushes out to make their early TC an original two window design,
you should consider what a dumb idea this was in the first place. The two
window design makes it very difficult to see out the back and makes a
center rear view interior mirror almost useless.
I drove a TC for over 15 years with a repro two window top. It was made of
white vinyl and lasted forever. But I never felt secure in knowing what
went on behind me as I could not see anything out the back without turning
my head. See Mike Card comment below in "--- " for seeing out. Remember, we
are driving these cars in 2000+, not 1945 and the road and drivers have
changed dramatically since those times.
For me, a single rear window top for SAFETY, regardless of year of the car
or what is "correct".
Bob Grunau

Previous Message::
My thanks for doing that. I am pretty sure that you have a reproduction
top, or an original with a newer window. Those dimensions sound much too
big to me for a late 1940s rear window.
But it is interesting in that it shows how thinking on repairs and
restorations changed over the years. [I remember putting a black vinyl hood
on a TC in the late 1960s, "" with a large rear window so that I could see
out from the inside mirror"" - three, or maybe four, restoration errors
which would get me a reprimand these days.]

Thanks again

Mike Card

----- Original Message -----

Subject: [mg-tabc] TC Rear Window

[Peter Pleitner]

Hi Michael, Hope you're enjoying a nice holiday. Just measured my (Windmill?) hood's window. It is 8 1/4 x 26 1/2 inches with 3/4 inch radius on all corners, set 5 1/4 inches above the lower edge of the rear bottom welting. Cheers, Peter

[Michael Card]

I now have a photo of an original TC rear window. This can be found in Malcolm Green's "T Series Restoration Guide". [Page 14.] Malcolm lives close by, and has kindly made some enlarged photocopies from which a scaled set of dimensions could be obtained. Despite the previous points about different suppliers of hoods etc, with which I entirely agree, this photo of a new car taken in 1948 could at least give us data on one single-window hood. Unfortunately the photo is taken from the quarter so it may not be so easy to scale the width. It will be interesting to see how this compares with measurements by Peter Nicola Norm Russ and others. Clive, would you like me to mail you an A4 photocopy of this photo? You did such a great job on scaling the twin window photo that this might be a challenge?? If yes, let me have your address. Regards to all Mike Card TC/8233