BSW & BSF Spanners

[Mike Inglehearn]

Hi IanI too had always thought BSW and BSF heads were different sizes until coming across the reference to this directive. The actual directive does not really matter, what matters is that the size of the head on BSW bolts pre-war was one size larger than the head of BSF bolts which is indicated by the sizes given on spanners and shown on pre-war BSW table B.S. 190; 1924 which is for BSW only and gives a 5/16 BSW head as being 0.595 to 0.600 inch across the flats, and a 1/4 BSW bolt as 0.520 to 0.525 inch across the flats. Moving on to B.S.1083; 1951 this table is for both BSW and BSF and for a 5/16 bolt gives a head of 0.518 to .0525 inch across the flats ie one size down for BSW, having also compared a new 5/16 BSW bolt to a BSF one, the heads are the same size. Presumably it was considered that it would cause too much confusion to change spanner markings. I believe as has been mentioned that the only BSW bolt on the TB & TC is the bolt on the dynamo, so presumably the TB one should have the bigger headed bolt!RegardsMike TB0457 [b]From:[/b] "ian thomson i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Yahoogroups mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, 6 March 2018, 11:17 [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners   This thread seems to be developing a life of its own.  In 50 years of playing with old cars I for one have never heard of this.  Of course it's possible that I have not been listening hard enough but I have always believed that BSF and BSW heads were different sizes.  Indeed of my not inconsiderable collection of spanners, both pre and post war, most are marked as such.  I am wondering in fact if this is an urban myth which is getting under way here.  Has anybody a copy of this wartime directive?  If it went to all manufacturers surely there must have been a lot out there.  My impression of engineering firms is that they do what suits their purposes and are not averse to putting any heads on bolts which suited them as William Morris's empire did.  Indeed even on modern cars I find mismatched threads and heads, often with only 1mm difference, presumably to aid assembly on an ever moving construction line.  Some evidence would h elp to persuade me. Ian ThomsonNotts UK #ygrps-yiv-1576557305 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933 -- #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1576557305 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-1576557305 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1576557305 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-1576557305 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-1576557305 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933 #ygrps-yiv-1576557305yiv7522500933ygrp-mkp 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[Norman Verona]

Attachments :

[*][url=file:///C:\Users\Steve\AppData\Local\PG Offline 4\Attachments\\db180306 (3).jpg]db180306 (3).jpg[/url]

Reading this with interest. I don t think this spanner is pre-war.

 

 

[b][i]Norman Verona[/i][/b]

11 Cherry Close, Royston, South Yorkshire S71 4LZ

Phone: 0044 (0)1226 728811

Mob: 0044 (0)741 9905 741

[b][i]Web: www.frenchblat.com[/i][/b]

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]On Behalf Of [/b]MIKE INGLEHEARN mingle54@btinternet.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 06 March 2018 11:35 [b]To:[/b] i.thomson@talk21.com; Yahoogroups mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners

 

 

Hi Ian

I too had always thought BSW and BSF heads were different sizes until coming across the reference to this directive. The actual directive does not really matter, what matters is that the size of the head on BSW bolts pre-war was one size larger than the head of BSF bolts which is indicated by the sizes given on spanners and shown on pre-war BSW table B.S. 190; 1924 which is for BSW only and gives a 5/16 BSW head as being 0.595 to 0.600 inch across the flats, and a 1/4 BSW bolt as 0.520 to 0.525 inch across the flats. Moving on to B.S.1083; 1951 this table is for both BSW and BSF and for a 5/16 bolt gives a head of 0.518 to .0525 inch across the flats ie one size down for BSW, having also compared a new 5/16 BSW bolt to a BSF one, the heads are the same size. Presumably it was considered that it would cause too much confusion to change spanner markings. 

I believe as has been mentioned that the only BSW bolt on the TB & TC is the bolt on the dynamo, so presumably the TB one should have the bigger headed bolt!

Regards

Mike 

TB0457

 

[b]From:[/b] "ian thomson i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] Yahoogroups mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, 6 March 2018, 11:17 [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners

 

 

This thread seems to be developing a life of its own.  In 50 years of playing with old cars I for one have never heard of this.  Of course it's possible that I have not been listening hard enough but I have always believed that BSF and BSW heads were different sizes.  Indeed of my not inconsiderable collection of spanners, both pre and post war, most are marked as such.  I am wondering in fact if this is an urban myth which is getting under way here.  Has anybody a copy of this wartime directive?  If it went to all manufacturers surely there must have been a lot out there.  My impression of engineering firms is that they do what suits their purposes and are not averse to putting any heads on bolts which suited them as William Morris's empire did.  Indeed even on modern cars I find mismatched threads and heads, often with only 1mm difference, presumably to aid assembly on an ever moving construction line.  Some evidence would h elp to persuade me.

 

Ian Thomson

Notts UK

 

[montgomery1947]

Attachments :My workshop experience was limited but professional, and in Scotland with machine tools that did have the bolts with the smaller war time directives heads.

Few, if any, fastener manufacturers actually put a head on a bolt (or the flats on a nut); they turned them from hexagonal bright bar and the surface of the bar supplied the flats . The difference between the bright bar and the finished bolt was scrap. Use a smaller hex bar for a smaller head => less scrap. For any bolt which is used in shear the size on the head is of no importance.

 

Wm Morris used British hex bar, and the Hotchkiss tooling produced the metric bolts.

 

And yes, my older spanners are marked with different BSW and BSF, with the Whitworth frequently designated by W or WW .

 

 

Robin Montgomery, CT, USA

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]On Behalf Of [/b]ian thomson i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, March 06, 2018 5:17 AM [b]To:[/b] Yahoogroups mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners

 

 

This thread seems to be developing a life of its own.  In 50 years of playing with old cars I for one have never heard of this.  Of course it's possible that I have not been listening hard enough but I have always believed that BSF and BSW heads were different sizes.  Indeed of my not inconsiderable collection of spanners, both pre and post war, most are marked as such.  I am wondering in fact if this is an urban myth which is getting under way here.  Has anybody a copy of this wartime directive?  If it went to all manufacturers surely there must have been a lot out there.  My impression of engineering firms is that they do what suits their purposes and are not averse to putting any heads on bolts which suited them as William Morris's empire did.  Indeed even on modern cars I find mismatched threads and heads, often with only 1mm difference, presumably to aid assembly on an ever moving construction line.  Some evidence would help to persuade me.  

Ian Thomson

Notts UK