gdr ready

[Ramey]

Actually you should be, red loctite is a poor choice. Blue is adequate. The core problem is lack of bolt strength. Loosness is only a symptom. Good luck. Zac -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Eric L. Green Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:04 PM To: Ramey Cc: DSN_klr650 Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] Subframe bolt failure rate

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, Ramey wrote: > The subframe of the KLR has a weakness in attachment. The upper bolts are > the main prob. If they loosen at all the sub frame cuts them off to failure. Two words: Red Loc-tite. Between the Loc-tite and the fact that I upgraded my bolts to top-grade bolts, I'm not worried. -E Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links

[Pat Schmid]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Arden Kysely" wrote:

> You can just go the easy route and buy better bolts. I'm a lightweight > and don't do much two-up, but went with the Big Cee kit for peace of > mind when I'm in the back of beyond with a load of camping gear. > > __Arden >

I'm using the better bolts. With riding gear I'm 210. With camping gear lets say a 300 lb payload and I haven't had any problem with my subframe or the bolts. I used red loctite on all of them to make sure they won't loosen. Pat G'ville, NV

[dooden]

Not in my eyes... Red is a permanant bond, even the factory used (alot actually) red loc-tight on the subframe bolts on my 2001. Point being if the bolt happens to loosen up it allows flex and movement which will lead to bolt failure. True... Blue is better than nothing, just check the bolts from time to time and ride it. Dooden A15 Green Ape

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ramey" wrote: > Actually you should be, red loctite is a poor choice. Blue is adequate. The > core problem is lack of bolt strength. Loosness is only a symptom. Good > luck. Zac >

[Pat Schmid]

Dooden's right, Ramey's wrong. Loosness is not the symptom of poor bolt strength. Loosness is a side effect of neglecting your ride and loosness is what will lead to premature failure of any bolt because it increases the stresses the bolt must survive. Dooden also has it right about red versus blue loctite. Blue is about the equivalent of a good lock washer while red is the equivalent of a good nylock. Use them accordingly. Pat G'ville, NV

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Dooden" wrote: > Not in my eyes... Red is a permanant bond, even the factory used (alot > actually) red loc-tight on the subframe bolts on my 2001. > > Point being if the bolt happens to loosen up it allows flex and > movement which will lead to bolt failure. > > True... Blue is better than nothing, just check the bolts from time to > time and ride it. > > Dooden > A15 Green Ape > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ramey" wrote: > > Actually you should be, red loctite is a poor choice. Blue is > adequate. The > > core problem is lack of bolt strength. Loosness is only a symptom. Good > > luck. Zac > > >

[Ramey]

Been wrong many times. Don't think so on this one. Factory has locking goo and it doesn't work well. Will red/blue/purple/gray work? Sure. It is still treating the symptom and not the poor fastener/design. The prob isn't the bolts strength but its application. That is what the kits address. Zac -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Pat Schmid Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:17 AM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Subframe bolt failure rate Dooden's right, Ramey's wrong. Loosness is not the symptom of poor bolt strength. Loosness is a side effect of neglecting your ride and loosness is what will lead to premature failure of any bolt because it increases the stresses the bolt must survive. Dooden also has it right about red versus blue loctite. Blue is about the equivalent of a good lock washer while red is the equivalent of a good nylock. Use them accordingly. Pat G'ville, NV

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Dooden" wrote: > Not in my eyes... Red is a permanant bond, even the factory used (alot > actually) red loc-tight on the subframe bolts on my 2001. > > Point being if the bolt happens to loosen up it allows flex and > movement which will lead to bolt failure. > > True... Blue is better than nothing, just check the bolts from time to > time and ride it. > > Dooden > A15 Green Ape > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ramey" wrote: > > Actually you should be, red loctite is a poor choice. Blue is > adequate. The > > core problem is lack of bolt strength. Loosness is only a symptom. Good > > luck. Zac > > > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links

[Eric L. Green]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, Pat Schmid wrote:

> Dooden's right, Ramey's wrong. Loosness is not the symptom of poor > bolt strength.

Actually, it *could* be. Bolts stretch. Poor-quality low-strength bolts stretch more than high-quality high-strength bolts. One purpose of torquing a bolt is basically to pre-stretch it to a point at which it doesn't want to stretch any more under the load to which it is typically subjected. If the bolt is insufficiently strong and the load is higher than anticipated, it could stretch further than that. My factory top bolts had enough red loc-tite on them that getting them off was a major PITA. So my suspicion is that bolt stretch, not bolt turning due to vibration, is responsible for most cases of loose (and eventually broken) top subframe bolts. It is disconcerting, perhaps, to realize that things that we typically regard as "solid" are actually more open space than substance and are held together only by attractive forces between the subatomic particles that make them up... -E

[John Biccum]

In a former life I was a receiving inspector for a aerospace company. In this capacity I broke a lot of bolts to test their strength. The machine would pull the bolt then note the load in pounds when the bolt started to stretch (yield strength) then when it snapped (ultimate strength). So with an axial load bolts (whether steel,aluminum, inconel or titanium) will definitely stretch before they break, I have seen thousands of them do it! But the engine mount bolts in a KLR are not likely to stretch since the load is a sheer load, not an axial load like a bolt under test. So while bolt looseness *could* be a symptom of a bolt yielding to an incredible load by elongating it not likely to be the case in the engine mount bolts on a KLR. A much more likely culprit is that the bolt loosens due to vibration then rocks back and forth becoming fatigued. Remember how you can break wire by repeatedly flexing it back and forth? BTW, this is the exact failure mode I have seen twice on the kickstand pivot bolt. First it loosens, then if flexes, then it sheers off. In 30K miles my A16 has sheered off two pivot bolts and my pre-trip regimen of torquing bolts last night found the pivot bolt loose and fatigued yet again. I've aken to carrying a spare pivot bolt.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Schmid" To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:17 Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Subframe bolt failure rate > Dooden's right, Ramey's wrong. Loosness is not the symptom of poor > bolt strength. Loosness is a side effect of neglecting your ride and > loosness is what will lead to premature failure of any bolt because it > increases the stresses the bolt must survive. > > Dooden also has it right about red versus blue loctite. Blue is about > the equivalent of a good lock washer while red is the equivalent of a > good nylock. Use them accordingly. > > Pat > G'ville, NV > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Dooden" wrote: >> Not in my eyes... Red is a permanant bond, even the factory used (alot >> actually) red loc-tight on the subframe bolts on my 2001. >> >> Point being if the bolt happens to loosen up it allows flex and >> movement which will lead to bolt failure. >> >> True... Blue is better than nothing, just check the bolts from time to >> time and ride it. >> >> Dooden >> A15 Green Ape >> >> >> --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Ramey" wrote: >> > Actually you should be, red loctite is a poor choice. Blue is >> adequate. The >> > core problem is lack of bolt strength. Loosness is only a symptom. > Good >> > luck. Zac >> >> > > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

[Blake Sobiloff]

On 8/10/05, John Biccum wrote:

> In a former life I was a receiving inspector for a aerospace company. In > this capacity I broke a lot of bolts to test their strength.

Too cool!

> A much more likely culprit is that the bolt loosens due to vibration then > rocks back and forth becoming fatigued. Remember how you can break wire by > repeatedly flexing it back and forth?

Thanks for the explanation. It's nice to hear from folks with thorough knowledge of the issue. -- Blake Sobiloff San Jose, CA (USA)

[mbarney]

This brings up a question I've often wondered about. I have loctited my subframe bolts, among others. When I give my bike a thorough going-over before a trip, I generally check all of the fasteners and tighten those that need it. If I tighten a bolt that was previously loctited, does the rotation of the threads render the loctite ineffective? Do I need to re-apply it each time I tighten a bolt? What do you guys think? -Matt in Boise, ID --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Pat Schmid" wrote:

> Dooden's right, Ramey's wrong. Loosness is not the symptom of poor > bolt strength. Loosness is a side effect of neglecting your ride

and

> loosness is what will lead to premature failure of any bolt

because it

> increases the stresses the bolt must survive. > > Dooden also has it right about red versus blue loctite. Blue is

about

> the equivalent of a good lock washer while red is the equivalent

of a

> good nylock. Use them accordingly. > > Pat > G'ville, NV >

[Pat Schmid]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "John Biccum" wrote:

> > But the engine mount bolts in a KLR are not likely to stretch since

the load

> is a sheer load, not an axial load like a bolt under test. So while

bolt

> looseness *could* be a symptom of a bolt yielding to an incredible

load by

> elongating it not likely to be the case in the engine mount bolts on

a KLR.

> A much more likely culprit is that the bolt loosens due to vibration

then

> rocks back and forth becoming fatigued. Remember how you can break

wire by

> repeatedly flexing it back and forth? > > BTW, this is the exact failure mode I have seen twice on the

kickstand pivot

> bolt. First it loosens, then if flexes, then it sheers off. In

30K miles

> my A16 has sheered off two pivot bolts and my pre-trip regimen of

torquing

> bolts last night found the pivot bolt loose and fatigued yet again.

I've That is the reason why I always replace any frame bolt that I've discovered loose. They have been fatigued so they get replaced. With the foot peg mounting bolts, about the only thing that can create enough shearing force to stretch the bolt to the point of failure is clipping a rock. Otherwise they get hammered to the point they break, often as not the head spinning off as you try to torque it down. Are you using red loctite on the pivot bolt? If that is not working, the answer might be to drill out the welding out nut and tap it for a helicoil of the same size. By nature of it's design and the use of a quality alloy, helicoils have been demonstrated to provide better grip when the bolt is torqued. Pat G'ville, NV