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Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 2:57 pm
by tonygoodall
Hi Guys
I have an 1/8th of an inch or so movement at 12 o clock/6 o clock on the
offside front wheel, not kingpins, so assumed wheel bearings needed
replacing.
Did the job, bearings seemed a good fit on the spindle....no difference,
still the same movement, it seems the bearings were ok. (traditional ball
bearings)
Then read Peter Pleitners account of new spindles, on the web site, and
noted his reference to "not daring to apply 150 lbs to ball bearings."
What is the torque that should be applied to the castellated nut and what if
the hole for the split pin doesn't line up with a gap, plus, will increased
torque make any difference to this wheel movement?
I had assumed that although the bearings seemed a snug fit, there must be
some wear on the spindle and was thinking of resorting to Loctite bearing
mount but I'm not too keen on this as a solution.
Observations will be gratefully received.
Tony TC9825
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 5:10 pm
by JTPAKI@aol.com
Tony,
The torque of 150 lbs is not applied to the race to the roller (balls), but
to the base of bearing to the bearing distance tube. Shims along with the
center distance tube set the end play.
Joe Potter
In a message dated 5/21/2001 3:01:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tonygoodall@blueyonder.co.uk writes:
Hi Guys
I have an 1/8th of an inch or so movement at 12 o clock/6 o clock on the
offside front wheel, not kingpins, so assumed wheel bearings needed
replacing.
Did the job, bearings seemed a good fit on the spindle....no difference,
still the same movement, it seems the bearings were ok. (traditional ball
bearings)
Then read Peter Pleitners account of new spindles, on the web site, and
noted his reference to "not daring to apply 150 lbs to ball bearings."
What is the torque that should be applied to the castellated nut and what if
the hole for the split pin doesn't line up with a gap, plus, will increased
torque make any difference to this wheel movement?
I had assumed that although the bearings seemed a snug fit, there must be
some wear on the spindle and was thinking of resorting to Loctite bearing
mount but I'm not too keen on this as a solution.
Observations will be gratefully received.
Tony TC9825
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 5:39 pm
by Robert Johnson
Tony:
When I worked as a mechanic on cars of the immediate post war era, the
following procedure was always used on ball-bearing equipped cars. Unlike
tapered-roller bearings, you don't really "torque" them down as part of the
adjustment procedure.
If you look in Factory Shop Manuals for other British cars from that period
which used ball bearings on the hubs (such as the Jaguar XK120 and Morris
Minor), all direct you to tighten the castellated nut down snug enough to
ensure that the bearings are seated all the way home. If it was necessary
for me to estimate a torque number, in my experience I'd say no more than
about 10 ft-lbs is quite adequate. You then back off the nut AT LEAST ONE
FULL FLAT OF ROTATION regardless of where the gaps are in relation to the
hole in the stub axle.. THEN KEEP LOOSENING A BIT MORE UNTIL THE NEXT GAP
LINES UP. Put the split pin in, bend it over and your done. The end float
will usually come out to be about .005" or thereabouts.
Bob Johnson
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 6:23 pm
by Frank O_ The Mountain
In a message dated 5/21/01 3:01:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tonygoodall@blueyonder.co.uk writes:
>>
Then you take a little off the nut by working it down on a flat surface
(plate glass) and emory cloth....you are tightening against the spacer (is it
in there between the two bearings?), so that should not make a difference in
your movement. Needs to be very tight, torque, I'd say 60 foot pounds would
do it....most likely your movement is in the wheel splines and
spinner...wear....have someone else look while you fiddle the tire back and
forth.
I'd be delighted with only 1/8" movement!~!!
Terry
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 6:24 pm
by Frank O_ The Mountain
In a message dated 5/21/01 3:01:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tonygoodall@blueyonder.co.uk writes:
>
BTW, don't use anything else....
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 7:19 pm
by Chip Old
Bob, the method you describe is suitable only for adjusting tapered roller
bearings or ball bearings where no spacer tube is used between the inner
races. In such assemblies the outer races are the fixed parts, and the
inner races slide on the spindle. Adjustment is achieved by adjusting the
tension (or lack thereof) on the inner races.
The TA/B/C assembly uses a spacer tube between the inner races. The outer
races are fixed, and the inner races are clamped tight against the
distance tube so are also fixed. Correct adjustment is determined by the
length of the spacer tube.
The fact that the spacer tube and inner races are clamped together by the
spindle nut also adds strength to the spindle. You don't get that if you
use the loose adjustment method you described. You also don't get it if
you substitute tapered roller bearings without a spacer tube, but that's
another story.
Someone mentioned applying 150 pount-feet of torque. I don't know where
that came fropm, but it's excessive. The manual just says "good and
tight" or something equally vague, but I would think 50 - 60 pount-feet
would be about right given the spindle and thread dimensions..
On Tue, 22 May 2001, Robert Johnson wrote:
> When I worked as a mechanic on cars of the immediate post war era, the
> following procedure was always used on ball-bearing equipped cars.
> Unlike tapered-roller bearings, you don't really "torque" them down as
> part of the adjustment procedure.
>
> If you look in Factory Shop Manuals for other British cars from that
> period which used ball bearings on the hubs (such as the Jaguar XK120
> and Morris Minor), all direct you to tighten the castellated nut down
> snug enough to ensure that the bearings are seated all the way home.
> If it was necessary for me to estimate a torque number, in my
> experience I'd say no more than about 10 ft-lbs is quite adequate. You
> then back off the nut AT LEAST ONE FULL FLAT OF ROTATION regardless of
> where the gaps are in relation to the hole in the stub axle.. THEN
> KEEP LOOSENING A BIT MORE UNTIL THE NEXT GAP LINES UP. Put the split
> pin in, bend it over and your done. The end float will usually come
> out to be about .005" or thereabouts.
--
Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271
Cub Hill, MD, USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E
fold@bcpl.net
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 7:59 pm
by Robert Johnson
Chip:
Thank you for clarifying that there is a spacer tube in TA/TB/TC cars which
as you say, means that the procedure I outlined for many other British cars
of that period with ball races which I have owned and serviced, does not in
fact apply and should not be used for the TA/TB/TC cars.
I've not had to do any front hub work yet on my TC and so I therefore also
thank you for saving me a surprise someday when I do have to attend to them.
Bob Johnson
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 9:10 pm
by Chip Old
On Mon, 21 May 2001, Bob Dobrenski wrote to Chip Old:
> If you change the front bearings to taper do you need the spacer.
Bob, you wrote me privately but I'm replying the the list. Hope you don't
mind, but the whole idea of a mailing list like MG-TABC is to share
information among the group.
Opinions differ on whether or not to use a spacer tube in a tapered roller
conversion. It used to be very common to install tapered roller bearings
on the TC without using a spacer tube. This made adjustment very easy,
along the lines of the method Bob Johnson described earlier tonight.
There are still a lot of TCs around with a spacerless roller bearing
setup.
On the other hand there may be merit to the idea that the inner races
clamped down tight against the spacer tube added strength to the original
roller bearing setup. Consequently current thinking seems to be that you
should still use a spacer tube with tapered roller bearings. In fact some
cars originally equipped with tapered rollers also use spacers (for
example MGA and MGB if I remember correctly).
Now, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I have no idea how to calculate
whether the spacer tube actually adds enough strength to the spindle to be
worth the effort. However it just seems to me to make sense, so if I were
to convert my TC to tapered rollers I would use a spacer.
Trouble is, using a spacer makes adjusting the bearing very fiddley. You
need to get the length of the spacer just the right to give the correct
play in the bearings (barely perceptible movement out at the wheel rim).
Maybe someone here who has done it can tell us how he accomplished that
while managing to retain his sanity.
In the mean time, I'll stick to the standard ball bearings.
--
Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271
Cub Hill, MD, USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E
fold@bcpl.net
Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Mon May 21, 2001 11:32 pm
by DAI
Dear all,
Like others, I have been through the process of
replacing the front stub axles, and have fitted Bob
Grunau's stub axle insert replacements, and standard
ball races with distance tubes and spacers, etc.
I have read a variety of opinion on the torque
settings in the last few hours; some at variance to
what I have used.
In the 'Technology folder' of the T-ABC website there
is an detailed explanation by Peter Pleitner of the
stub insert replacement, and a paragraph regarding the
reason for the high torque setting, pasted here:
"Important: This inner spacer and the 150 foot lbs. of
torque, combine to add a vital structural component
around our spindles. Bob Grunau caused my penny to
drop and grasp its significance. This spacer, in
combination with the inside races of the inner and
outer bearing, and the high torque which puts the
spindle under tension, effectively increase the
diameter of the spindle, hence its strength."
This is the set-up I have used.
Regards,
DAI
--- Robert Johnson webmaster@consultantbob.com>
wrote: > Chip:
>
> Thank you for clarifying that there is a spacer tube
> in TA/TB/TC cars which
> as you say, means that the procedure I outlined for
> many other British cars
> of that period with ball races which I have owned
> and serviced, does not in
> fact apply and should not be used for the TA/TB/TC
> cars.
>
> I've not had to do any front hub work yet on my TC
> and so I therefore also
> thank you for saving me a surprise someday when I do
> have to attend to them.
>
> Bob Johnson
>
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Re: Front wheel bearings
Posted: Tue May 22, 2001 8:33 am
by Ray McCrary
In order to properly setup the bearings, you need a depth gauge mounted on
the hub. This is the only way to properly set up the clearance.
And, BTW, don't leave out the spacer; you can get yourself killed.
Best,
Ray McCrary
"Speed is Life;
of course Luck and Altitude
are helpful, too."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Old" fold@bcpl.net>
To: "MG-TABC" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Front wheel bearings
> On Mon, 21 May 2001, Bob Dobrenski wrote to Chip Old:
>
> > If you change the front bearings to taper do you need the spacer.
>
> Bob, you wrote me privately but I'm replying the the list. Hope you don't
> mind, but the whole idea of a mailing list like MG-TABC is to share
> information among the group.
>
> Opinions differ on whether or not to use a spacer tube in a tapered roller
> conversion. It used to be very common to install tapered roller bearings
> on the TC without using a spacer tube. This made adjustment very easy,
> along the lines of the method Bob Johnson described earlier tonight.
> There are still a lot of TCs around with a spacerless roller bearing
> setup.
>
> On the other hand there may be merit to the idea that the inner races
> clamped down tight against the spacer tube added strength to the original
> roller bearing setup. Consequently current thinking seems to be that you
> should still use a spacer tube with tapered roller bearings. In fact some
> cars originally equipped with tapered rollers also use spacers (for
> example MGA and MGB if I remember correctly).
>
> Now, I'm not a mechanical engineer so I have no idea how to calculate
> whether the spacer tube actually adds enough strength to the spindle to be
> worth the effort. However it just seems to me to make sense, so if I were
> to convert my TC to tapered rollers I would use a spacer.
>
> Trouble is, using a spacer makes adjusting the bearing very fiddley. You
> need to get the length of the spacer just the right to give the correct
> play in the bearings (barely perceptible movement out at the wheel rim).
> Maybe someone here who has done it can tell us how he accomplished that
> while managing to retain his sanity.
>
> In the mean time, I'll stick to the standard ball bearings.
>
> --
> Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271
> Cub Hill, MD, USA 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E
>
fold@bcpl.net
>
>
>
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