Wilsons Sandbox

I just have to chime in. I have a problem with the bolts they are selling as upgrades for OEM sub frame bolts. I understand these are stronger bolts than the OEM. They are usually 12.9 grade bolts (which have another issue called hydrogen embrittlement that I won't go into). My issue is they are using fully threaded fasteners. In my industry (aerospace), we never put threads in a load bearing application like this. The proper way to design a bolted joint is to use partially threaded fasteners with a grip (the unthreaded part). The threaded part of the bolt shall never be used as a load bearing surface. If you can't find a bolt that fits for your application, you can use washers under the bolt head to adjust it. The Eagle Mike drill thru kit uses a partially threaded bolt for the upper mount, but his lower bolts are fully threaded. Here is a good reference for those who want further reading LOL! http://www.fastenal.com/web/services.ex?action=FEDS&article=BoltedJointDesign If you think the post about sub frame upgrades is "super anal" then I can only imagine what you think of this... -David ________________________________ From: "pdstreeter@..." To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Fw: KLR 650 stolen then found- need advice Stu asked me to forward this to the list.:

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, pdstreeter@... wrote: > > David wrote: > > > Maybe the subframe is broken? Will a > >little weld job be strong enough? > > No problem welding the sub-frame, I had that done in Mexico a couple of > years ago. I'd be more careful welding the main frame, but hey, it's > steel, shouldn't be a problem for a good welder. > > Paul Streeter > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > I doubt it's a broken sub-frame, I'll bet the upper bolts are broken. Very common, not a big deal at all. Here is a super-anal thread to read. http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/KLR650%20Subframe%20drill%20thru%20step%20by%20step%20walkthru.html As far as the rest of the bike, unless the dummy drained it of oil and then ringed it out, I reckon it'll be just fine. Good luck! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree about needing the "grip" (I call it a "shoulder", because I'm ignorant). But I don't get the part about using washers to compensate for the lack of one. The washers won't go inside the joint, where the grip should be, inside where the load is bearing. So, where do we find 12.9 grade, M8-1.25, 30 mm bolts with a grip that's at least as long as the part of the frame that will be bearing on them? And oh yeah, I'll bite: Tell us about "hydrogen embrittlement". -JWF

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, David Nichols wrote: > > I just have to chime in. I have a problem with the bolts they are selling as upgrades for OEM sub frame bolts. I understand these are stronger bolts than the OEM. They are usually 12.9 grade bolts (which have another issue called hydrogen embrittlement that I won't go into). > > My issue is they are using fully threaded fasteners. In my industry (aerospace), we never put threads in a load bearing application like this. The proper way to design a bolted joint is to use partially threaded fasteners with a grip (the unthreaded part). The threaded part of the bolt shall never be used as a load bearing surface. If you can't find a bolt that fits for your application, you can use washers under the bolt head to adjust it. The Eagle Mike drill thru kit uses a partially threaded bolt for the upper mount, but his lower bolts are fully threaded. > > Here is a good reference for those who want further reading LOL! > http://www.fastenal.com/web/services.ex?action=FEDS&article=BoltedJointDesign > > If you think the post about sub frame upgrades is "super anal" then I can only imagine what you think of this... > > -David > ________________________________ > From: "pdstreeter@..." > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:21 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Fw: KLR 650 stolen then found- need advice > > > > > > Stu asked me to forward this to the list.: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, pdstreeter@ wrote: > > > > David wrote: > > > > > Maybe the subframe is broken? Will a > > >little weld job be strong enough? > > > > No problem welding the sub-frame, I had that done in Mexico a couple of > > years ago. I'd be more careful welding the main frame, but hey, it's > > steel, shouldn't be a problem for a good welder. > > > > Paul Streeter > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > I doubt it's a broken sub-frame, I'll bet the upper bolts are broken. > > Very common, not a big deal at all. > > Here is a super-anal thread to read. > http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/KLR650%20Subframe%20drill%20thru%20step%20by%20step%20walkthru.html > > As far as the rest of the bike, unless the dummy drained it of oil and then > ringed it out, I reckon it'll be just fine. > > Good luck! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

You would use washers to adjust the grip if you cannot find an exact bolt length to suit your application. Basically, you get the next longer bolt in this case and if you install it without washers it would bottom on the end of the threads before the underside of the bolt head hits the frame. So, you get a thick enough washer to adjust the length and install the washer under the bolt head. A grip is also called a shank. The metric bolts that are partially threaded are specification DIN931. McMaster Carr is a good source for DIN931 10.9 grade bolts. 12.9 is stronger, but harder to find. I believe 10.9 strength is plenty strong especially because you would want the bolts to break before the frame. http://www.mcmaster.com/ Maryland metrics is also a good source I've used for my work (I'm not sure if you can order quantities less than 10): http://mdmetric.com/ Hydrogen embrittlement is a problem with metric hardware because it is less controlled by the ASTM. It occurs when you plate the bolt with Cadmium, which is the most common plating used to protect against corrosion. It only is a problem with the higher strength hardware, 10.9 and higher. When you Cad plate a bolt, you need to do a post bake to eliminate this from occurring. We had a problem on a weapons program that used metric hardware because in most cases the metric hardware was stocked in the non Cad plated condition and the suppliers were sending them out to be plated by companies who were inexperienced in the post bake process. The baking has to be done within 2 hours of the plating, or the parts are scrap. We had some bolts that held an 18,000 lb. missile launcher turret fail. The bolts were properly torqued and when we came in the next morning several had popped their heads off overnight and were found 10 feet away. From the investigation it was found that Hydrogen embrittlement was the cause. They now require all hardware to be lot tested to ensure this won't happen again. It really sucks when your missile launcher falls apart. SAE hardware is almost never sent out to be plated after manufacture (they are plated by the original manufacturer), probably because it is more common and the ASTM regulates it more in the US. And you wonder why airplanes and weapons are so expensive... Was this TMI? -David ________________________________ From: JWF To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:48 PM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Sub frame bolt upgrade. I agree about needing the "grip" (I call it a "shoulder", because I'm ignorant). But I don't get the part about using washers to compensate for the lack of one. The washers won't go inside the joint, where the grip should be, inside where the load is bearing. So, where do we find 12.9 grade, M8-1.25, 30 mm bolts with a grip that's at least as long as the part of the frame that will be bearing on them? And oh yeah, I'll bite: Tell us about "hydrogen embrittlement". -JWF

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, David Nichols wrote: > > I just have to chime in. I have a problem with the bolts they are selling as upgrades for OEM sub frame bolts. I understand these are stronger bolts than the OEM. They are usually 12.9 grade bolts (which have another issue called hydrogen embrittlement that I won't go into). > > My issue is they are using fully threaded fasteners. In my industry (aerospace), we never put threads in a load bearing application like this. The proper way to design a bolted joint is to use partially threaded fasteners with a grip (the unthreaded part). The threaded part of the bolt shall never be used as a load bearing surface. If you can't find a bolt that fits for your application, you can use washers under the bolt head to adjust it. The Eagle Mike drill thru kit uses a partially threaded bolt for the upper mount, but his lower bolts are fully threaded. > > Here is a good reference for those who want further reading LOL! > http://www.fastenal.com/web/services.ex?action=FEDS&article=BoltedJointDesign > > If you think the post about sub frame upgrades is "super anal" then I can only imagine what you think of this... > > -David > ________________________________ > From: "pdstreeter@..." > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:21 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Fw: KLR 650 stolen then found- need advice > > > > > > Stu asked me to forward this to the list.: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, pdstreeter@ wrote: > > > > David wrote: > > > > > Maybe the subframe is broken? Will a > > >little weld job be strong enough? > > > > No problem welding the sub-frame, I had that done in Mexico a couple of > > years ago. I'd be more careful welding the main frame, but hey, it's > > steel, shouldn't be a problem for a good welder. > > > > Paul Streeter > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > I doubt it's a broken sub-frame, I'll bet the upper bolts are broken. > > Very common, not a big deal at all. > > Here is a super-anal thread to read. > http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/KLR650%20Subframe%20drill%20thru%20step%20by%20step%20walkthru.html > > As far as the rest of the bike, unless the dummy drained it of oil and then > ringed it out, I reckon it'll be just fine. > > Good luck! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I love the arcane, who knew about these things but the guys really dealing with r&d sort of stuff in the different fields who are involved with a common interest, the KLR. Wonderful! Don M -----Original Message----- From: David Nichols Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 6:04 PM To: JWF ; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Sub frame bolt upgrade. You would use washers to adjust the grip if you cannot find an exact bolt length to suit your application. Basically, you get the next longer bolt in this case and if you install it without washers it would bottom on the end of the threads before the underside of the bolt head hits the frame. So, you get a thick enough washer to adjust the length and install the washer under the bolt head. A grip is also called a shank. The metric bolts that are partially threaded are specification DIN931. McMaster Carr is a good source for DIN931 10.9 grade bolts. 12.9 is stronger, but harder to find. I believe 10.9 strength is plenty strong especially because you would want the bolts to break before the frame. http://www.mcmaster.com/ Maryland metrics is also a good source I've used for my work (I'm not sure if you can order quantities less than 10): http://mdmetric.com/ Hydrogen embrittlement is a problem with metric hardware because it is less controlled by the ASTM. It occurs when you plate the bolt with Cadmium, which is the most common plating used to protect against corrosion. It only is a problem with the higher strength hardware, 10.9 and higher. When you Cad plate a bolt, you need to do a post bake to eliminate this from occurring. We had a problem on a weapons program that used metric hardware because in most cases the metric hardware was stocked in the non Cad plated condition and the suppliers were sending them out to be plated by companies who were inexperienced in the post bake process. The baking has to be done within 2 hours of the plating, or the parts are scrap. We had some bolts that held an 18,000 lb. missile launcher turret fail. The bolts were properly torqued and when we came in the next morning several had popped their heads off overnight and were found 10 feet away. From the investigation it was found that Hydrogen embrittlement was the cause. They now require all hardware to be lot tested to ensure this won't happen again. It really sucks when your missile launcher falls apart. SAE hardware is almost never sent out to be plated after manufacture (they are plated by the original manufacturer), probably because it is more common and the ASTM regulates it more in the US. And you wonder why airplanes and weapons are so expensive... Was this TMI? -David ________________________________ From: JWF To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:48 PM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Sub frame bolt upgrade. I agree about needing the "grip" (I call it a "shoulder", because I'm ignorant). But I don't get the part about using washers to compensate for the lack of one. The washers won't go inside the joint, where the grip should be, inside where the load is bearing. So, where do we find 12.9 grade, M8-1.25, 30 mm bolts with a grip that's at least as long as the part of the frame that will be bearing on them? And oh yeah, I'll bite: Tell us about "hydrogen embrittlement". -JWF --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, David Nichols wrote:

> > I just have to chime in. I have a problem with the bolts they are selling > as upgrades for OEM sub frame bolts. I understand these are stronger bolts > than the OEM. They are usually 12.9 grade bolts (which have another issue > called hydrogen embrittlement that I won't go into). > > My issue is they are using fully threaded fasteners. In my industry > (aerospace), we never put threads in a load bearing application like this. > The proper way to design a bolted joint is to use partially threaded > fasteners with a grip (the unthreaded part). The threaded part of the bolt > shall never be used as a load bearing surface. If you can't find a bolt > that fits for your application, you can use washers under the bolt head to > adjust it. The Eagle Mike drill thru kit uses a partially threaded bolt > for the upper mount, but his lower bolts are fully threaded. > > Here is a good reference for those who want further reading LOL! > http://www.fastenal.com/web/services.ex?action=FEDS&article=BoltedJointDesign > > If you think the post about sub frame upgrades is "super anal" then I > can only imagine what you think of this... > > -David > ________________________________ > From: "pdstreeter@..." > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:21 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Fw: KLR 650 stolen then found- need advice > > > > > > Stu asked me to forward this to the list.: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, pdstreeter@ wrote: > > > > David wrote: > > > > > Maybe the subframe is broken? Will a > > >little weld job be strong enough? > > > > No problem welding the sub-frame, I had that done in Mexico a couple of > > years ago. I'd be more careful welding the main frame, but hey, it's > > steel, shouldn't be a problem for a good welder. > > > > Paul Streeter > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > I doubt it's a broken sub-frame, I'll bet the upper bolts are broken. > > Very common, not a big deal at all. > > Here is a super-anal thread to read. > http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/KLR650%20Subframe%20drill%20thru%20step%20by%20step%20walkthru.html > > As far as the rest of the bike, unless the dummy drained it of oil and > then > ringed it out, I reckon it'll be just fine. > > Good luck! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

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Very nicely done. Wish I was there. From: Eric J Foster To: BRP People xr650r@yahoogroups.com>; ktm200@yahoogroups.com; xrlug group xrlug@yahoogroups.com>; KLRistas DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 10:37 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Where do I get plane tickets? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cCYYx9PrYs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Long Long ago Jake (RIP) sent me a care package that included upgraded bolts and some other cool stuff. Anyhow as he suggested and I totally agree with make sure the subframe bolts are TIGHT and have RED loc-tight. Been that way on my 01 since, and the bolts are the last thing I worry about when riding. If thats Mike's upgrade I seen once, with a drill through and such, agree its better, but I just do not see the need. Just Saying... yes mine has caught air enough to fully bottom out front and back (great take-off/horrible landing) Dooden A15 Green Ape

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, David Nichols wrote: > > I just have to chime in. I have a problem with the bolts they are selling as upgrades for OEM sub frame bolts. I understand these are stronger bolts than the OEM. They are usually 12.9 grade bolts (which have another issue called hydrogen embrittlement that I won't go into). > > My issue is they are using fully threaded fasteners. In my industry (aerospace), we never put threads in a load bearing application like this. The proper way to design a bolted joint is to use partially threaded fasteners with a grip (the unthreaded part). The threaded part of the bolt shall never be used as a load bearing surface. If you can't find a bolt that fits for your application, you can use washers under the bolt head to adjust it. The Eagle Mike drill thru kit uses a partially threaded bolt for the upper mount, but his lower bolts are fully threaded. > > Here is a good reference for those who want further reading LOL! > http://www.fastenal.com/web/services.ex?action=FEDS&article=BoltedJointDesign > > If you think the post about sub frame upgrades is "super anal" then I can only imagine what you think of this... > > -David > ________________________________ > From: "pdstreeter@..." > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:21 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Fw: KLR 650 stolen then found- need advice > > > > > > Stu asked me to forward this to the list.: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, pdstreeter@ wrote: > > > > David wrote: > > > > > Maybe the subframe is broken? Will a > > >little weld job be strong enough? > > > > No problem welding the sub-frame, I had that done in Mexico a couple of > > years ago. I'd be more careful welding the main frame, but hey, it's > > steel, shouldn't be a problem for a good welder. > > > > Paul Streeter > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > I doubt it's a broken sub-frame, I'll bet the upper bolts are broken. > > Very common, not a big deal at all. > > Here is a super-anal thread to read. > http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/KLR650%20Subframe%20drill%20thru%20step%20by%20step%20walkthru.html > > As far as the rest of the bike, unless the dummy drained it of oil and then > ringed it out, I reckon it'll be just fine. > > Good luck! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >