Wilsons Sandbox

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:55 am**

Hey all every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:38 pm**

Are you saying you are using it the compressed air in the cold garage right now? Is your air compressor a dry type or does it have an oil-filled crankcase? Do you have an air line filter (liquid separator) along the line prior to the use point? I could see a situation develop as you stated if you have a larger and older piston compressor that has oil blow-by from the crankcase and you aren't striping out that blow-by with a filter / separator. Higher temps in the summer could help that oil vapor stay in a gas state but when that hose is laying on an ice-cold Michigan garage floor, it'll condense the vapor (moonshine still). This is my best guess. I haven't experienced this situation but I have a dry air pump and have a separator. Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. Don R100, A6F

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, mark ward wrote: > > Hey all > > every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) > Mark > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:09 pm**

On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. ================================================= I think the advantage of air is that you can GET 1 hp to the tool, whereas with an electrical motor, you can't. Robert P. Wichert P.Eng +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ======================================================== On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > Are you saying you are using it the compressed air in the cold garage > right now? Is your air compressor a dry type or does it have an > oil-filled crankcase? Do you have an air line filter (liquid > separator) along the line prior to the use point? > > I could see a situation develop as you stated if you have a larger and > older piston compressor that has oil blow-by from the crankcase and > you aren't striping out that blow-by with a filter / separator. > > Higher temps in the summer could help that oil vapor stay in a gas > state but when that hose is laying on an ice-cold Michigan garage > floor, it'll condense the vapor (moonshine still). > > This is my best guess. I haven't experienced this situation but I have > a dry air pump and have a separator. > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 > hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's > about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc > that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment > in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > Don R100, A6F > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > , mark ward wrote: > > > > Hey all > > > > every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky > oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) > > Mark > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:37 pm**

I'd say it is still cheaper to buy a 1.15 hp electric tool (to get 1 hp) versus buying a compressor, piping, hoses, eletricity, and the compressed air tool. Air-powered tools are great when used in explosive / combusible vapor situations or in/around water, etc but they really aren't that efficient. When you start using lots of compressed air, bigger compressors, and for longer hours, any small inefficiency adds up to tens of thousands of dollars of extra costs. Just considering the electricity component (excluding consumed lubricants, service calls, maintenance parts, etc) at $0.14 / kWh when running a 100 hp Ingersol-Rand, Quincy, etc for 5,000 production hrs / yr, compressed air costs about $0.30 / 1,000 cubic feet (MCF = 1,000 cf). So, an air-driven 0.8 hp angle grinder might use 9 cfm x 2 hr / day x 60 min / hr x 200 days / yr = 216,000 cubic feet / yr or 216 MCF x $0.30 / MCF = $64.80 / yr to operate. An equivalent 0.80 hp electric angle grinder would use 0.746 kW / hp / 0.85 efficiency = 0.878 kWh / hp x 0.80 hp tool = 0.702 kW x 2 hrs / day x 200 days / yr x $0.14 / kWh = $39.33 / yr to operate. I might be a little off here and there but compressed air isn't free and every piping bend, pinch-point, minute leak, change of inlet temperature, costs you more money. But in a personal garage situation, the capital cost of the system that is maybe used once a week for a few minutes is the concern, along with poor maintenance (water build up in the holding tank = rust) that shortens its useful life. Hey just some thoughts, Don R100, A6F

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, RobertWichert wrote: > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It looks > like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at > the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's about > 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that > would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in the > air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > ================================================= > > I think the advantage of air is that you can GET 1 hp to the tool, > whereas with an electrical motor, you can't. > > > > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng > +1 916 966 9060 > FAX +1 916 966 9068 > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > Are you saying you are using it the compressed air in the cold garage > > right now? Is your air compressor a dry type or does it have an > > oil-filled crankcase? Do you have an air line filter (liquid > > separator) along the line prior to the use point? > > > > I could see a situation develop as you stated if you have a larger and > > older piston compressor that has oil blow-by from the crankcase and > > you aren't striping out that blow-by with a filter / separator. > > > > Higher temps in the summer could help that oil vapor stay in a gas > > state but when that hose is laying on an ice-cold Michigan garage > > floor, it'll condense the vapor (moonshine still). > > > > This is my best guess. I haven't experienced this situation but I have > > a dry air pump and have a separator. > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > > looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 > > hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's > > about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc > > that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment > > in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > , mark ward wrote: > > > > > > Hey all > > > > > > every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky > > oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) > > > Mark > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:28 am**

Let's look at the compressor end of things: I have a Craftsman Single Stage Model 919.167620 which has a 33 gal tank. A typical small garage application type unit for "Harry Homeowner". Running horsepower (hp) is 1.6 hp / 1.2 kW (1.6 hp x 0.746 kW/hp = 1.2 kW). At 90 psi it puts out 4.9 cubic feet per minute (cfm). If you run it for 100 hours, using 100% of the pump output so it doesn't shut off (would probably blow-up), it would use 120 kWh x $0.14 / kWh for electricity = $16.80. Your produced compressed air would be 100 hours x 60 mins/hr x 4.9 cfm = 29,400 cubic feet of air. 29,400 cf divided by 1,000 cf / MCF = 29.4 MCF (thousand cubic feet). $16.80 of electricity / 29.4 MCF = $0.579 / MCF of compressed air. Harry Homerowner type units (small hp reciprocating piston types) aren't as efficient as the industrial rotary types at 30 hp, 60 hp, 125 hp, etc, so the cost of compressed air is more expensive and in this case $0.579 / MCF vs. and industrial unit that could deliver at or below $0.30 / MCF. In real-life you have to take into account the loading on the unit, rest cycles, etc but the above example is a good estimate of cost. Don R100, A6F

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "spike55_bmw" wrote: > > I'd say it is still cheaper to buy a 1.15 hp electric tool (to get 1 hp) versus buying a compressor, piping, hoses, eletricity, and the compressed air tool. > > Air-powered tools are great when used in explosive / combusible vapor situations or in/around water, etc but they really aren't that efficient. When you start using lots of compressed air, bigger compressors, and for longer hours, any small inefficiency adds up to tens of thousands of dollars of extra costs. Just considering the electricity component (excluding consumed lubricants, service calls, maintenance parts, etc) at $0.14 / kWh when running a 100 hp Ingersol-Rand, Quincy, etc for 5,000 production hrs / yr, compressed air costs about $0.30 / 1,000 cubic feet (MCF = 1,000 cf). > > So, an air-driven 0.8 hp angle grinder might use 9 cfm x 2 hr / day x 60 min / hr x 200 days / yr = 216,000 cubic feet / yr or 216 MCF x $0.30 / MCF = $64.80 / yr to operate. > > An equivalent 0.80 hp electric angle grinder would use 0.746 kW / hp / 0.85 efficiency = 0.878 kWh / hp x 0.80 hp tool = 0.702 kW x 2 hrs / day x 200 days / yr x $0.14 / kWh = $39.33 / yr to operate. > > I might be a little off here and there but compressed air isn't free and every piping bend, pinch-point, minute leak, change of inlet temperature, costs you more money. But in a personal garage situation, the capital cost of the system that is maybe used once a week for a few minutes is the concern, along with poor maintenance (water build up in the holding tank = rust) that shortens its useful life. > > Hey just some thoughts, > > Don R100, A6F > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, RobertWichert wrote: > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It looks > > like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at > > the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's about > > 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that > > would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in the > > air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > > > ================================================= > > > > I think the advantage of air is that you can GET 1 hp to the tool, > > whereas with an electrical motor, you can't. > > > > > > > > > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng > > +1 916 966 9060 > > FAX +1 916 966 9068 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > > > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > > > Are you saying you are using it the compressed air in the cold garage > > > right now? Is your air compressor a dry type or does it have an > > > oil-filled crankcase? Do you have an air line filter (liquid > > > separator) along the line prior to the use point? > > > > > > I could see a situation develop as you stated if you have a larger and > > > older piston compressor that has oil blow-by from the crankcase and > > > you aren't striping out that blow-by with a filter / separator. > > > > > > Higher temps in the summer could help that oil vapor stay in a gas > > > state but when that hose is laying on an ice-cold Michigan garage > > > floor, it'll condense the vapor (moonshine still). > > > > > > This is my best guess. I haven't experienced this situation but I have > > > a dry air pump and have a separator. > > > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > > > looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 > > > hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's > > > about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc > > > that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment > > > in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > > , mark ward wrote: > > > > > > > > Hey all > > > > > > > > every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky > > > oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:39 am**

My point was that a 1 HP motor is going to be too big to carry. Here is a nice one that weighs 33 lbs. http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/motors/ac-motors-definite-purpose/jm-pump-motors/motor-143-dp-3ph-1730-1430rpm-c143t17dk3aa Robert P. Wichert P.Eng +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ========================================================

On 1/27/2011 6:28 AM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > Let's look at the compressor end of things: > > I have a Craftsman Single Stage Model 919.167620 which has a 33 gal > tank. A typical small garage application type unit for "Harry > Homeowner". Running horsepower (hp) is 1.6 hp / 1.2 kW (1.6 hp x 0.746 > kW/hp = 1.2 kW). At 90 psi it puts out 4.9 cubic feet per minute > (cfm). If you run it for 100 hours, using 100% of the pump output so > it doesn't shut off (would probably blow-up), it would use 120 kWh x > $0.14 / kWh for electricity = $16.80. Your produced compressed air > would be 100 hours x 60 mins/hr x 4.9 cfm = 29,400 cubic feet of air. > 29,400 cf divided by 1,000 cf / MCF = 29.4 MCF (thousand cubic feet). > $16.80 of electricity / 29.4 MCF = $0.579 / MCF of compressed air. > > Harry Homerowner type units (small hp reciprocating piston types) > aren't as efficient as the industrial rotary types at 30 hp, 60 hp, > 125 hp, etc, so the cost of compressed air is more expensive and in > this case $0.579 / MCF vs. and industrial unit that could deliver at > or below $0.30 / MCF. > > In real-life you have to take into account the loading on the unit, > rest cycles, etc but the above example is a good estimate of cost. > > Don R100, A6F > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > , "spike55_bmw" > wrote: > > > > I'd say it is still cheaper to buy a 1.15 hp electric tool (to get 1 > hp) versus buying a compressor, piping, hoses, eletricity, and the > compressed air tool. > > > > Air-powered tools are great when used in explosive / combusible > vapor situations or in/around water, etc but they really aren't that > efficient. When you start using lots of compressed air, bigger > compressors, and for longer hours, any small inefficiency adds up to > tens of thousands of dollars of extra costs. Just considering the > electricity component (excluding consumed lubricants, service calls, > maintenance parts, etc) at $0.14 / kWh when running a 100 hp > Ingersol-Rand, Quincy, etc for 5,000 production hrs / yr, compressed > air costs about $0.30 / 1,000 cubic feet (MCF = 1,000 cf). > > > > So, an air-driven 0.8 hp angle grinder might use 9 cfm x 2 hr / day > x 60 min / hr x 200 days / yr = 216,000 cubic feet / yr or 216 MCF x > $0.30 / MCF = $64.80 / yr to operate. > > > > An equivalent 0.80 hp electric angle grinder would use 0.746 kW / hp > / 0.85 efficiency = 0.878 kWh / hp x 0.80 hp tool = 0.702 kW x 2 hrs / > day x 200 days / yr x $0.14 / kWh = $39.33 / yr to operate. > > > > I might be a little off here and there but compressed air isn't free > and every piping bend, pinch-point, minute leak, change of inlet > temperature, costs you more money. But in a personal garage situation, > the capital cost of the system that is maybe used once a week for a > few minutes is the concern, along with poor maintenance (water build > up in the holding tank = rust) that shortens its useful life. > > > > Hey just some thoughts, > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > , RobertWichert wrote: > > > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > looks > > > like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at > > > the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's > about > > > 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that > > > would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in > the > > > air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > > > > > ================================================= > > > > > > I think the advantage of air is that you can GET 1 hp to the tool, > > > whereas with an electrical motor, you can't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng > > > +1 916 966 9060 > > > FAX +1 916 966 9068 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > > > > > > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > > > > > Are you saying you are using it the compressed air in the cold > garage > > > > right now? Is your air compressor a dry type or does it have an > > > > oil-filled crankcase? Do you have an air line filter (liquid > > > > separator) along the line prior to the use point? > > > > > > > > I could see a situation develop as you stated if you have a > larger and > > > > older piston compressor that has oil blow-by from the crankcase and > > > > you aren't striping out that blow-by with a filter / separator. > > > > > > > > Higher temps in the summer could help that oil vapor stay in a gas > > > > state but when that hose is laying on an ice-cold Michigan garage > > > > floor, it'll condense the vapor (moonshine still). > > > > > > > > This is my best guess. I haven't experienced this situation but > I have > > > > a dry air pump and have a separator. > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > > > > looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to > provide 1 > > > > hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. > That's > > > > about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, > wrench, etc > > > > that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital > investment > > > > in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use > right there. > > > > > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , mark ward wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hey all > > > > > > > > > > every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky > > > > oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:02 am**

FYI: I uploaded a file in the Files section, it's an Excel spreadsheet listing all the magazine articles for the 87-07 KLR. Not sure if this is of interest to anyone but I wanted to share it. I can't find anywhere else where this has been listed. I found the website I asked about earlier but it's not as complete as this list. Also, I have collected every article on this list...

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "david.r.nichols@..." wrote: > > Somewhere I saw a list of magazine tests for the KLR650 on the internet. I cannot find it now, does anyone know where this list is? >

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:06 am**

I should have said, there is a filter AND anouther hose (black rubber goodyear) before this one is fine, the little bit of water in the filter looks normal. (compessor 5hp. belt drive, 60 gal) I have since found a few other threads commenting on a "red" hose, I think I got it at H.F., I have also noticed the last couple years, I have had More valve stems leak on all 3 bikes and truck, then ever before. I think the sticky oily "CRAP" is (WAS) getting inside the valve causing issues. SO its getting tossed, I maybe able to clean the outside, but not the inside well enought to trust. THANKS

--- On Thu, 1/27/11, RobertWichert wrote: From: RobertWichert Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Compressor Air hose To: "spike55_bmw" Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 2:39 PM My point was that a 1 HP motor is going to be too big to carry. Here is a nice one that weighs 33 lbs. http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/motors/ac-motors-definite-purpose/jm-pump-motors/motor-143-dp-3ph-1730-1430rpm-c143t17dk3aa Robert P. Wichert P.Eng +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ======================================================== On 1/27/2011 6:28 AM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > Let's look at the compressor end of things: > > I have a Craftsman Single Stage Model 919.167620 which has a 33 gal > tank. A typical small garage application type unit for "Harry > Homeowner". Running horsepower (hp) is 1.6 hp / 1.2 kW (1.6 hp x 0.746 > kW/hp = 1.2 kW). At 90 psi it puts out 4.9 cubic feet per minute > (cfm). If you run it for 100 hours, using 100% of the pump output so > it doesn't shut off (would probably blow-up), it would use 120 kWh x > $0.14 / kWh for electricity = $16.80. Your produced compressed air > would be 100 hours x 60 mins/hr x 4.9 cfm = 29,400 cubic feet of air. > 29,400 cf divided by 1,000 cf / MCF = 29.4 MCF (thousand cubic feet). > $16.80 of electricity / 29.4 MCF = $0.579 / MCF of compressed air. > > Harry Homerowner type units (small hp reciprocating piston types) > aren't as efficient as the industrial rotary types at 30 hp, 60 hp, > 125 hp, etc, so the cost of compressed air is more expensive and in > this case $0.579 / MCF vs. and industrial unit that could deliver at > or below $0.30 / MCF. > > In real-life you have to take into account the loading on the unit, > rest cycles, etc but the above example is a good estimate of cost. > > Don R100, A6F > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > , "spike55_bmw" > wrote: > > > > I'd say it is still cheaper to buy a 1.15 hp electric tool (to get 1 > hp) versus buying a compressor, piping, hoses, eletricity, and the > compressed air tool. > > > > Air-powered tools are great when used in explosive / combusible > vapor situations or in/around water, etc but they really aren't that > efficient. When you start using lots of compressed air, bigger > compressors, and for longer hours, any small inefficiency adds up to > tens of thousands of dollars of extra costs. Just considering the > electricity component (excluding consumed lubricants, service calls, > maintenance parts, etc) at $0.14 / kWh when running a 100 hp > Ingersol-Rand, Quincy, etc for 5,000 production hrs / yr, compressed > air costs about $0.30 / 1,000 cubic feet (MCF = 1,000 cf). > > > > So, an air-driven 0.8 hp angle grinder might use 9 cfm x 2 hr / day > x 60 min / hr x 200 days / yr = 216,000 cubic feet / yr or 216 MCF x > $0.30 / MCF = $64.80 / yr to operate. > > > > An equivalent 0.80 hp electric angle grinder would use 0.746 kW / hp > / 0.85 efficiency = 0.878 kWh / hp x 0.80 hp tool = 0.702 kW x 2 hrs / > day x 200 days / yr x $0.14 / kWh = $39.33 / yr to operate. > > > > I might be a little off here and there but compressed air isn't free > and every piping bend, pinch-point, minute leak, change of inlet > temperature, costs you more money. But in a personal garage situation, > the capital cost of the system that is maybe used once a week for a > few minutes is the concern, along with poor maintenance (water build > up in the holding tank = rust) that shortens its useful life. > > > > Hey just some thoughts, > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > , RobertWichert wrote: > > > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > looks > > > like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at > > > the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's > about > > > 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that > > > would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in > the > > > air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > > > > > ================================================= > > > > > > I think the advantage of air is that you can GET 1 hp to the tool, > > > whereas with an electrical motor, you can't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng > > > +1 916 966 9060 > > > FAX +1 916 966 9068 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > > > > > > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > > > > > Are you saying you are using it the compressed air in the cold > garage > > > > right now? Is your air compressor a dry type or does it have an > > > > oil-filled crankcase? Do you have an air line filter (liquid > > > > separator) along the line prior to the use point? > > > > > > > > I could see a situation develop as you stated if you have a > larger and > > > > older piston compressor that has oil blow-by from the crankcase and > > > > you aren't striping out that blow-by with a filter / separator. > > > > > > > > Higher temps in the summer could help that oil vapor stay in a gas > > > > state but when that hose is laying on an ice-cold Michigan garage > > > > floor, it'll condense the vapor (moonshine still). > > > > > > > > This is my best guess. I haven't experienced this situation but > I have > > > > a dry air pump and have a separator. > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > > > > looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to > provide 1 > > > > hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. > That's > > > > about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, > wrench, etc > > > > that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital > investment > > > > in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use > right there. > > > > > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > > > > , mark ward wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hey all > > > > > > > > > > every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky > > > > oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:59 am**

Just used a rule of thumb - 7-8 hp @ compressor = 1 hp @ the tool. You are right though, I wouldn't want to carry a 1 hp electric motor but for stationary situations an electric motor would be better. I was just saying that people over use compressed air and it adds to the system cost. Don R100, A6F

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, RobertWichert wrote: > > My point was that a 1 HP motor is going to be too big to carry. Here > is a nice one that weighs 33 lbs. > http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/motors/ac-motors-definite-purpose/jm-pump-motors/motor-143-dp-3ph-1730-1430rpm-c143t17dk3aa > > > > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng > +1 916 966 9060 > FAX +1 916 966 9068 > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > > > On 1/27/2011 6:28 AM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > Let's look at the compressor end of things: > > > > I have a Craftsman Single Stage Model 919.167620 which has a 33 gal > > tank. A typical small garage application type unit for "Harry > > Homeowner". Running horsepower (hp) is 1.6 hp / 1.2 kW (1.6 hp x 0.746 > > kW/hp = 1.2 kW). At 90 psi it puts out 4.9 cubic feet per minute > > (cfm). If you run it for 100 hours, using 100% of the pump output so > > it doesn't shut off (would probably blow-up), it would use 120 kWh x > > $0.14 / kWh for electricity = $16.80. Your produced compressed air > > would be 100 hours x 60 mins/hr x 4.9 cfm = 29,400 cubic feet of air. > > 29,400 cf divided by 1,000 cf / MCF = 29.4 MCF (thousand cubic feet). > > $16.80 of electricity / 29.4 MCF = $0.579 / MCF of compressed air. > > > > Harry Homerowner type units (small hp reciprocating piston types) > > aren't as efficient as the industrial rotary types at 30 hp, 60 hp, > > 125 hp, etc, so the cost of compressed air is more expensive and in > > this case $0.579 / MCF vs. and industrial unit that could deliver at > > or below $0.30 / MCF. > > > > In real-life you have to take into account the loading on the unit, > > rest cycles, etc but the above example is a good estimate of cost. > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > , "spike55_bmw" > > wrote: > > > > > > I'd say it is still cheaper to buy a 1.15 hp electric tool (to get 1 > > hp) versus buying a compressor, piping, hoses, eletricity, and the > > compressed air tool. > > > > > > Air-powered tools are great when used in explosive / combusible > > vapor situations or in/around water, etc but they really aren't that > > efficient. When you start using lots of compressed air, bigger > > compressors, and for longer hours, any small inefficiency adds up to > > tens of thousands of dollars of extra costs. Just considering the > > electricity component (excluding consumed lubricants, service calls, > > maintenance parts, etc) at $0.14 / kWh when running a 100 hp > > Ingersol-Rand, Quincy, etc for 5,000 production hrs / yr, compressed > > air costs about $0.30 / 1,000 cubic feet (MCF = 1,000 cf). > > > > > > So, an air-driven 0.8 hp angle grinder might use 9 cfm x 2 hr / day > > x 60 min / hr x 200 days / yr = 216,000 cubic feet / yr or 216 MCF x > > $0.30 / MCF = $64.80 / yr to operate. > > > > > > An equivalent 0.80 hp electric angle grinder would use 0.746 kW / hp > > / 0.85 efficiency = 0.878 kWh / hp x 0.80 hp tool = 0.702 kW x 2 hrs / > > day x 200 days / yr x $0.14 / kWh = $39.33 / yr to operate. > > > > > > I might be a little off here and there but compressed air isn't free > > and every piping bend, pinch-point, minute leak, change of inlet > > temperature, costs you more money. But in a personal garage situation, > > the capital cost of the system that is maybe used once a week for a > > few minutes is the concern, along with poor maintenance (water build > > up in the holding tank = rust) that shortens its useful life. > > > > > > Hey just some thoughts, > > > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > , RobertWichert wrote: > > > > > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > > looks > > > > like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at > > > > the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's > > about > > > > 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that > > > > would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in > > the > > > > air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > > > > > > > ================================================= > > > > > > > > I think the advantage of air is that you can GET 1 hp to the tool, > > > > whereas with an electrical motor, you can't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng > > > > +1 916 966 9060 > > > > FAX +1 916 966 9068 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying you are using it the compressed air in the cold > > garage > > > > > right now? Is your air compressor a dry type or does it have an > > > > > oil-filled crankcase? Do you have an air line filter (liquid > > > > > separator) along the line prior to the use point? > > > > > > > > > > I could see a situation develop as you stated if you have a > > larger and > > > > > older piston compressor that has oil blow-by from the crankcase and > > > > > you aren't striping out that blow-by with a filter / separator. > > > > > > > > > > Higher temps in the summer could help that oil vapor stay in a gas > > > > > state but when that hose is laying on an ice-cold Michigan garage > > > > > floor, it'll condense the vapor (moonshine still). > > > > > > > > > > This is my best guess. I haven't experienced this situation but > > I have > > > > > a dry air pump and have a separator. > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It > > > > > looks like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to > > provide 1 > > > > > hp at the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. > > That's > > > > > about 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, > > wrench, etc > > > > > that would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital > > investment > > > > > in the air system or equipment that you are only able to use > > right there. > > > > > > > > > > Don R100, A6F > > > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > , mark ward wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey all > > > > > > > > > > > > every winter in a non heated garage, my air hose gets real sticky > > > > > oily, anyone else deal with this issue?? (reddish in color) > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:34 pm**

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, RobertWichert wrote:

> > On 1/26/2011 3:38 PM, spike55_bmw wrote: > > Personally, I'm starting to re-think the use of compressed air. It looks > like it takes about 7-8 compressor horsepower (hp) to provide 1 hp at > the tool. Doesn't sound like it is really that efficient. That's about > 15% versus a direct-drive electrical drill, grinder, wrench, etc that > would 85%+ efficient and doesn't require the capital investment in the > air system or equipment that you are only able to use right there. > > ================================================= > > I think the advantage of air is that you can GET 1 hp to the tool, > whereas with an electrical motor, you can't. > > > > > Robert P. Wichert P.Eng > +1 916 966 9060 > FAX +1 916 966 9068 >

PLUS, you can fill up your tires. Try THAT with your electric drill...! Cheers, Ed

Wilsons Sandbox

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