Wilsons Sandbox

On Apr 8, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Don Pendergraft wrote: > > > I have an '08 KLR that is a real oil burner. 1 quart every 500 > miles like > clockwork. I ascribed it to bad luck and the fact that I spend alot > of time > above 5K rpm's on the highway. The bike has about 16K miles on it. > Anyway, I > brought it to the dealership to get the recall work done (3 > recalls) because > I'm tired of getting the notices. I had also batched together a > list of > other things for them to fix/replace (e.g. rotted rubber giblets, KACR > issue, lower high beam, etc). Lastly, I told them that I wanted to > file a > warranty claim on the oil consumption issue. I've known about it > forever > since I was an early adopter of the '08 (purchased July '07), but I > figured > the pioneers get the arrows and I I thought I should let others battle > Kawasaki until things became clearer. Well, that strategy worked in > that > Kawasaki is well aware of the issue. So I brought in the bike... > > The mechanics were great. I even went to church with one of them. > They said > they would get it squared away for me. When they tore it apart, > they said > they could see where the oil has been blowing past the piston and > that the > cylinder looked like it was out of round. They contacted Kawasaki > and got > permission to bore the cylinder and go up to the next larger size. > So they > are ordering the new, larger, piston and rings. Kind of funny. I > had no idea > they had a slightly larger version. It's not the 685 kit, sadly! Just > slightly bigger. The mechanics have a guy that does precision work on > aircraft engines and they are going to let him do the boring. > Anyway... > > My question is about the out of round cylinder. Did something > happen to > cause this, or is it a factory defect? My other thought was that > band-aids > like the 16T front sprocket would not have made a bit of > difference. Anyway, > bizarre about the cylinder. I'm hopeful that they can fix the > problem. I'm > about 50/50 on it I guess. Many have had the work done, with mixed > results. > The only sure fire way is to do the 685 kit. But I'm cheap. This isn't > costing me a dime, so I will try it first. > > Don+ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Apr 9, 2009, at 7:12 AM, Mike Hansen wrote: > > > [[ My question is about the out of round cylinder. Did something > happen to > cause this, or is it a factory defect? ]] > > I doubt your cylinder was "out of round" the aluminum piston will > worp before the steel cylinder. Excessive heat will cause the > piston to fail. Your lucky it is still under warrenty. if your > running 5k+ RPM's . You should be using synthetic engine oil. > Plus, not sure what fuel you feed your engine, but 91 Octane is > required. > > -Mike- > > > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: Don Pendergraft > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 7:55:59 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > I have an '08 KLR that is a real oil burner. 1 quart every 500 > miles like > clockwork. I ascribed it to bad luck and the fact that I spend alot > of time > above 5K rpm's on the highway. The bike has about 16K miles on it. > Anyway, I > brought it to the dealership to get the recall work done (3 > recalls) because > I'm tired of getting the notices. I had also batched together a > list of > other things for them to fix/replace (e.g. rotted rubber giblets, KACR > issue, lower high beam, etc). Lastly, I told them that I wanted to > file a > warranty claim on the oil consumption issue. I've known about it > forever > since I was an early adopter of the '08 (purchased July '07), but I > figured > the pioneers get the arrows and I I thought I should let others battle > Kawasaki until things became clearer. Well, that strategy worked in > that > Kawasaki is well aware of the issue. So I brought in the bike... > > The mechanics were great. I even went to church with one of them. > They said > they would get it squared away for me. When they tore it apart, > they said > they could see where the oil has been blowing past the piston and > that the > cylinder looked like it was out of round. They contacted Kawasaki > and got > permission to bore the cylinder and go up to the next larger size. > So they > are ordering the new, larger, piston and rings. Kind of funny. I > had no idea > they had a slightly larger version. It's not the 685 kit, sadly! Just > slightly bigger. The mechanics have a guy that does precision work on > aircraft engines and they are going to let him do the boring. > Anyway... > > My question is about the out of round cylinder. Did something > happen to > cause this, or is it a factory defect? My other thought was that > band-aids > like the 16T front sprocket would not have made a bit of > difference. Anyway, > bizarre about the cylinder. I'm hopeful that they can fix the > problem. I'm > about 50/50 on it I guess. Many have had the work done, with mixed > results. > The only sure fire way is to do the 685 kit. But I'm cheap. This isn't > costing me a dime, so I will try it first. > > Don+ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Listers, > > I think you'll find the cylinders of all engines will tend to go out > of > round after a bit of usage. The orientation/movement of the piston > and > piston pin will have a small effect on the wear of the cylinder. > Also > with the stock coolant system design on the KLR the coolant enters > one > side of the cylinder and then flows up and around to get to the > head. > The coolant in the cylinder is warm to hot and then coolant entering > the > cylinder on a stock system is maybe 80 degrees cooler. That > thermal > shock will cause some movement in the size of the cylinder. This > is > where a Thermo-Bob can make a pretty nice difference. > > Without a precise measurement of the cylinder I doubt you'll be able > to > tell the cylinder is out of round. We're probably only talking > about > 0.002"-0.003" difference on a well worn cylinder. But that is > enough to > cause oil use issues. > > I've got a 2005 cylinder on the bench right now and I'll try to > remember > to measure it today if I get time and check it for taper and out of > round. I'll also try to measure the piston so there is a comparison > of > piston to cylinder clearance for both x and y.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Don Pendergraft wrote: > > I have an '08 KLR that is a real oil burner. 1 quart every 500 miles like > clockwork. I ascribed it to bad luck and the fact that I spend alot of time > above 5K rpm's on the highway. The bike has about 16K miles on it. Anyway, I > brought it to the dealership to get the recall work done (3 recalls) because > I'm tired of getting the notices. I had also batched together a list of > other things for them to fix/replace (e.g. rotted rubber giblets, KACR > issue, lower high beam, etc). Lastly, I told them that I wanted to file a > warranty claim on the oil consumption issue. I've known about it forever > since I was an early adopter of the '08 (purchased July '07), but I figured > the pioneers get the arrows and I I thought I should let others battle > Kawasaki until things became clearer. Well, that strategy worked in that > Kawasaki is well aware of the issue. So I brought in the bike... > > The mechanics were great. I even went to church with one of them. They said > they would get it squared away for me. When they tore it apart, they said > they could see where the oil has been blowing past the piston and that the > cylinder looked like it was out of round. They contacted Kawasaki and got > permission to bore the cylinder and go up to the next larger size. So they > are ordering the new, larger, piston and rings. Kind of funny. I had no idea > they had a slightly larger version. It's not the 685 kit, sadly! Just > slightly bigger. The mechanics have a guy that does precision work on > aircraft engines and they are going to let him do the boring. Anyway... > > My question is about the out of round cylinder. Did something happen to > cause this, or is it a factory defect? My other thought was that band-aids > like the 16T front sprocket would not have made a bit of difference. Anyway, > bizarre about the cylinder. I'm hopeful that they can fix the problem. I'm > about 50/50 on it I guess. Many have had the work done, with mixed results. > The only sure fire way is to do the 685 kit. But I'm cheap. This isn't > costing me a dime, so I will try it first. > > Don+ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

> Synthetic oil stays cooler, doesnt reach as high of temps that > mineral oil do.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Saline" To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Cylinder out of round... > > **Previous post left intact.** > > Cylinder and piston measurements at the end of this post. > > > On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 07:15:00 -0600 Jeff Saline writes: >> Listers, >> >> I think you'll find the cylinders of all engines will tend to go out >> of >> round after a bit of usage. The orientation/movement of the piston >> and >> piston pin will have a small effect on the wear of the cylinder. >> Also >> with the stock coolant system design on the KLR the coolant enters >> one >> side of the cylinder and then flows up and around to get to the >> head. >> The coolant in the cylinder is warm to hot and then coolant entering >> the >> cylinder on a stock system is maybe 80 degrees cooler. That >> thermal >> shock will cause some movement in the size of the cylinder. This >> is >> where a Thermo-Bob can make a pretty nice difference. >> >> Without a precise measurement of the cylinder I doubt you'll be able >> to >> tell the cylinder is out of round. We're probably only talking >> about >> 0.002"-0.003" difference on a well worn cylinder. But that is >> enough to >> cause oil use issues. >> >> I've got a 2005 cylinder on the bench right now and I'll try to >> remember >> to measure it today if I get time and check it for taper and out of >> round. I'll also try to measure the piston so there is a comparison >> of >> piston to cylinder clearance for both x and y. > > SNIP > <><><><><><><> > <><><><><><><> > > I measured a 2005 piston and cylinder with 8,175 miles on them. I don't > know any history of the parts, I just own them. The piston didn't show > any discoloration below the oil ring and only slight brownish > discoloration near the top to about 1/16" below the second ring. I have > absolutely no idea what oil was used in the engine before the cylinder > and piston were removed. > > Temperature of the parts was right at 68 F as were the measuring > instruments. I used a Fowler 3"-4" outside micrometer for the piston > measurements and for setting a Fowler 2"-6" dial bore gauge for the > cylinder measurements. Accuracy on the mic is 0.0001" and the dial bore > gauge is graduated in 0.0005" increments but you can guesstimate pretty > close to 0.0001" with a little experience. > > The piston was measured about 1/4" from the bottom of the skirt which > later will be referred to as the y axis. Just for grins I also measured > it immediately below the oil ring. At the skirt it measured 3.9337" and > below the oil ring it measured 3.9287". > > I then measured the cylinder on two axes, x is side to side or the same > as the wrist pin position. The y axis is front to back and where you > should expect the most wear from the piston skirt and piston movement > "rocking" in the bore. I measured at the top, middle and bottom of the > cylinder for each axis. > > Here are my measurements with the dial bore gauge set at zero at 3.9337". > I have the measurements prefixed with a + since the bore is larger than > the piston. : ) > > x axis y axis difference > top +0.0032" +0.0041" 0.0009" > middle +0.0032" +0.0046" 0.0014" > bottom +0.0032" +0.0049" 0.0017" > > taper 0.0000" 0.0008" > > As you can see the y axis has quite a bit of wear from the piston > movement in the cylinder while the x axis has very little wear. And it > makes sense the bottom is more worn than the top of the y axis as that is > the part that sees much more movement of the piston than the top of the > cylinder. > > I could not see the taper or wear in this cylinder by looking at it. I > needed the dial bore gauge to show the wear and measure it. > > Hope this is helpful. > > Best, > > Jeff Saline > ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal > Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org > The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota > 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT > >

On Apr 9, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Rick McCauley wrote: > > > I will give you that. I do tend to lug my bike more than I should. > Especially being I tip the scales at 280 lbs. The KLR does like it > better if i keep the engine singing. But I still prefer the peace > of mind the higher octane gives me. > > rick > A17 > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, k650 wrote: > > From: k650 > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > To: ramachm12@..., dsn_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 4:22 PM > > It may simply be you are letting the RPM's get too low (lugging). > I have a jet kit in mine and can run the engine really low but > with the carb as yours is I think most recommend keeping it > above 2000 in first to 3500 in the top gear. Maybe even higher. > I think some use the figures of 2500 to 4000 minimum depending > on the gear you are in. > > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick McCauley" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:59 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > Bought the bike brand new, and has always been that way. Already > turned the > mixture screw out. > > Let me make one change to my previous statement. On very warm or > hot days > under a good load she rattles. Cruising down the road is fine. But > with 93 > octane I can be caught in traffic on a 100 degree day with no rattles. > > Rick > A17 > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, k650 wrote: > > From: k650 > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > To: ramachm12@yahoo. com, dsn_klr650@yahoogro ups.com > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 3:55 PM > > Your bike is either set excessively lean or has large > carbon deposits on the piston top, valves and head. > I would try adjusting the mixture screw. You might > lose an MPG or two but with the less expensive regular > gas the cost per mile should still be less. > > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McCauley" > > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:44 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > You can all use 87 octane if you want, but my bike gets Shell 93 > octane. I > have > had to put other gas in at different times but I always use the > highest > octane I > can find. My bike rattles like a garbage can full of bolts if i use 87 > octane. > > Rick > A17 > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, k650 wrote: > > From: k650 > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > To: "Mike Hansen" , "KLR" > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 3:35 PM > > A research octane of 91 is the same as 87 octane at the pump. > The method used to arrive at the octane rating is different. > > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hansen" yahoo.com> > To: "KLR" > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:05 PM > Subject: re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > Synthetic oil stays cooler, doesnt reach as high of temps that > mineral oil > do. > > On your left side cover, were it has your info tag/plate for the > bike. tires > size,spark plug,gap, oil, etc... it also says fuel= Gasloine with > research > octane 91 min. > > now, The oil issue, If your running close to redline for 500 > miles , I would > want to keep my engine as cool as possible , so synthetic would > help. with > the Fuel. its Kawasaki's recommendation. > > -Mike- > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: revmaaatin > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com > Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 9:42:47 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com, Mike Hansen > wrote: > > SNIP > > if your running 5k+ RPM's . You should be using synthetic engine > oil. Plus, > not sure what fuel you feed your engine, but 91 Octane is required. > > > > -Mike- > > > > Hi Mike, > Just curious. > How did you come to this conclusion that synthetic should be used. > > How did you conclude that 91 Octane is required. > > Substantiation please. > =without conjecture and postulation of an arbitrary thesis > caveat: humor with verbose conjecture allowed as long as the KLR "F" > word > (farkle) is used repeatedly. > > revmaaatin. always curious why my bike runs just fine at 5Krpms on > 87/85 > octane and dino oil--not that I have anything against syn products-- > I use > them in the car > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews. com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/ klr650faq. html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr com/dsnklr650Yah oo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews. com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/ klr650faq. html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr com/dsnklr650Yah oo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews. com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/ klr650faq. html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr com/dsnklr650Yah oo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- On Fri, 4/10/09, roncriswell@... wrote: From: roncriswell@... Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... To: ramachm12@... Cc: dsn_klr650@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 10, 2009, 7:07 AM In my experience, lugging an engine is worse for the engine than higher rpm. Criswell On Apr 9, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Rick McCauley wrote: > > > I will give you that. I do tend to lug my bike more than I should. > Especially being I tip the scales at 280 lbs. The KLR does like it > better if i keep the engine singing. But I still prefer the peace > of mind the higher octane gives me. > > rick > A17 > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, k650 wrote: > > From: k650 > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > To: ramachm12@yahoo. com, dsn_klr650@yahoogro ups.com > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 4:22 PM > > It may simply be you are letting the RPM's get too low (lugging). > I have a jet kit in mine and can run the engine really low but > with the carb as yours is I think most recommend keeping it > above 2000 in first to 3500 in the top gear. Maybe even higher. > I think some use the figures of 2500 to 4000 minimum depending > on the gear you are in. > > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick McCauley" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:59 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > Bought the bike brand new, and has always been that way. Already > turned the > mixture screw out. > > Let me make one change to my previous statement. On very warm or > hot days > under a good load she rattles. Cruising down the road is fine. But > with 93 > octane I can be caught in traffic on a 100 degree day with no rattles. > > Rick > A17 > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, k650 wrote: > > From: k650 > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > To: ramachm12@yahoo. com, dsn_klr650@yahoogro ups.com > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 3:55 PM > > Your bike is either set excessively lean or has large > carbon deposits on the piston top, valves and head. > I would try adjusting the mixture screw. You might > lose an MPG or two but with the less expensive regular > gas the cost per mile should still be less. > > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McCauley" > > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 4:44 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > You can all use 87 octane if you want, but my bike gets Shell 93 > octane. I > have > had to put other gas in at different times but I always use the > highest > octane I > can find. My bike rattles like a garbage can full of bolts if i use 87 > octane. > > Rick > A17 > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, k650 wrote: > > From: k650 > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > To: "Mike Hansen" , "KLR" > > Date: Thursday, April 9, 2009, 3:35 PM > > A research octane of 91 is the same as 87 octane at the pump. > The method used to arrive at the octane rating is different. > > Walt > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hansen" yahoo.com> > To: "KLR" > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:05 PM > Subject: re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > Synthetic oil stays cooler, doesnt reach as high of temps that > mineral oil > do. > > On your left side cover, were it has your info tag/plate for the > bike. tires > size,spark plug,gap, oil, etc... it also says fuel= Gasloine with > research > octane 91 min. > > now, The oil issue, If your running close to redline for 500 > miles , I would > want to keep my engine as cool as possible , so synthetic would > help. with > the Fuel. its Kawasaki's recommendation. > > -Mike- > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: revmaaatin > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com > Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2009 9:42:47 AM > Subject: Re: Fw: [DSN_KLR650] Cylinder out of round... > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com, Mike Hansen > wrote: > > SNIP > > if your running 5k+ RPM's . You should be using synthetic engine > oil. Plus, > not sure what fuel you feed your engine, but 91 Octane is required. > > > > -Mike- > > > > Hi Mike, > Just curious. > How did you come to this conclusion that synthetic should be used. > > How did you conclude that 91 Octane is required. > > Substantiation please. > =without conjecture and postulation of an arbitrary thesis > caveat: humor with verbose conjecture allowed as long as the KLR "F" > word > (farkle) is used repeatedly. > > revmaaatin. always curious why my bike runs just fine at 5Krpms on > 87/85 > octane and dino oil--not that I have anything against syn products-- > I use > them in the car > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews. com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/ klr650faq. html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr com/dsnklr650Yah oo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews. com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/ klr650faq. html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr com/dsnklr650Yah oo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews. com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/ klr650faq. html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr com/dsnklr650Yah oo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]