going to be politically incorrect and ride my klr for the fun of it.

[boulder_adv_rider]

Installed another M. E. doohickey but did the torsion spring this time. The site I used for instructions is: http://leftcoastklrs.com/Install_a_torsion_spring.htm The only installation complaint I have is knowing exactly where to drill. Despite reading the instruction and viewing the photos, it still seems a bit less than precise. The site says you could move it 1/32". Well, that's not much. And 1/32" where? Anyway, I lined up what looked good and seemingly matched the photos and I drilled the hole. The t/s came with the proper, tiny drill bit. It's so small I had to try 4 drills before I found one that could hold it. So just take note you need a capable drill here. So after the drilling and mounting the t/s, I attached it to the doohickey. This is different from the coil spring that attaches to the case and stretches to the balancer lever. The torsion spring no longer uses the lever or the mount on the case. It attaches into the drilled hole and stretches to hook the adjuster (aka doohickey). Directions say it'll take time to connect with a screwdriver, but I did it in 5 seconds with a good sized slotted screwdriver. As for performance, the spring seems to tension well and through the entire service range of the adjuster. Perhaps this eliminates changing from the big to small spring. Not sure but seems like it. The hook grabbing the adjuster (on its left side) seems like it could somehow pop out of the slot (and you'd never know it), but I haven't heard of this happening to anyone. Anyone ever witness this? The upshot is the torsion spring can't fall off the idler shaft unless the upgraded doohickey disintegrates--highly unlikely. The instructions call for pushing the spring towards the right side of the bike as possible. I did this and couldn't help but notice a coil working in behind the doohickey and forcing it out a bit. I don't think this matters as it's impossible to dislocate the doo/adjuster with its bolt securing it. And it didn't cause any clearance issue with my starter ring gear. Overall it was difficult to abandon the improved E.M. spring for the new torsion spring especially for $14 more. My E.M spring worked just fine although somewhere along the way the connection post/boss where the spring attaches to the case wore a bit of a groove. My biggest worry with the torsion spring is the arm coming out/off of the adjuster somehow. It just pokes/hooks into it. I'm sure the designers thought of this, but seeing is believing for me. If this spring fails or disconnects somehow at least the spring is safely contained. However, short of opening the case, you wouldn't know unless the slack was loud enough to slap the case or worse the slack causes engine damage. Lastly, I wonder about spring tension. My hunch is if you put too much tension on the system, it will accelerate wear on the chain and rubber dampening material on the balancer sprockets (3 of them). On my machine with 20k miles, I have to replace my balancer sprocket already. I can't help but think it's possible it wore faster with the stronger upgraded coil spring, but I have no proof. The chain is well within service limit but the front balancer sprocket is worn- out. This causes so much slack the adjuster is at it's max and the chain is striking the bottom of the case and up top just left (10 o'clock) of the upper sprocket. Of course the other two sprockets could be worn-out, too, but they don't look as bad. Regardless, I'm replacing all 3 balancer sprockets (not the crank sprocket though). I'm not sure if I'll do the torsion spring on mine or not. It's not difficult to do and potentially it saves you an intermittent spring change. It'd be an easier choice if someone else that's hard on their KLR chimed in with some combat mile experience. Commuters simply don't subject their KLR to hell, so I want to really know how it holds up under extreme conditions. Brian

[Jeff Saline]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 06:52:23 -0000 "boulder_adv_rider" writes:

> Installed another M. E. doohickey but did the torsion spring this > time. The site I used for instructions is: > > http://leftcoastklrs.com/Install_a_torsion_spring.htm

HUGE SNIP

> It'd be an easier choice if someone else that's hard on > their KLR chimed in with some combat mile experience. Commuters > simply don't subject their KLR to hell, so I want to really know how > it holds up under extreme conditions. > > Brian

<><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><> Brian, I did two doohickeys and torsion spring installations on Wednesday afternoon. This puts my experience with doohickeys at over 20 and with torsion springs at over 10. My preference for springs is the torsion spring without exception or hesitation. I can't see any issues with the spring popping off the doohickey since it doesn't move except when the doohickey is adjusted. No vibrating or oscillations involved like affects the coil springs and their tensioning system. One thing I have started doing with very good results is filing a small groove in the "upper" (when installed in the engine) side of the doohickey to act as a retaining groove for the spring. That eliminates the need to clearance the back side of the large starter gear. It holds the spring outer coil in place and I can't move it with a finger nail. I don't see how engine use will have any affect on the torsion spring performance. It's a static part unless being adjusted. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the satellite television package that meets your needs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mzvzl4BIps3XrlNIrBxLbNNFLgR62mIQOyPcqjuUdcxiHqc/

[boulder_adv_rider]

Jeff - 20 doohickies? Did Eagle Mike send you a free set of steak knives? Impressive. It's amazing Kaw still ignores this problem, but I'm delighted this community provides the solution and we provide it jobs, exciting challenges, etc. Enough profit goes overseas already. By far EM's doo design rocks and its longevity is legendary. Now I'm not sure who's making the torsion spring, but its design seems pretty good/stout. It's good to know you've done a few and no worries. The groove you filed is not in the instructions. But I think I understand what you did and it makes sense. Again, part of my worry is somehow the starter gear strikes the spring and rips it from the adjuster. Has this ever happened? Can it happen? Clearly the spring could move back towards the left side of the bike a touch...after all you simply forced it to the right side of the bike with a screwdriver. For me, I reassembled the starter ring and there didn't appear to be any clearance issues. But what about under fire? I'm considering the torsion for mine once I get back the top end from Schnitz. But I'm not a commuter. Rather my machine goes through hell and back, so I never rule-out anything. For example, I have 20k miles and already I seem to be the only one replacing my front balancer sprocket (and the other two sprockets just in case). So my balancer ecosystem is constantly under siege. So, I need to really understand this upgrade/torsion spring and all possible failures. So far the only thing two things I question is the spring 'trying' to get behind the adjuster and the connection point at the adjuster slot. The latter doesn't concern me so much. However, I do note that the improved doohickey pivots a bit on the idler shaft when clamped by the bolt. By this I mean the adjuster bolt locks-down the arc/slot area (bottom section) but there is nothing that holds down the top of the doohickey. So it rocks a tiny bit on the shaft which allows the torsion spring even more opportunity to get behind the spring. Could this "play" contribute to the spring becoming exposed to the starter ring? I just don't know and don't have experience with it. Again, your talking to a guy that found his OEM doo in 3 pieces and spring disconnected upon first exam...it never had a chance. Most commuters'/light duty riders' doos and spring I've seen are still in tact and working. Go and talk to Colorado Power Sports and it's never even heard of the "doohickey issue" and claim they work on them everyday. So again, I want to know how the torsion will act in road washes (high vibration), rocks, jumps, woops, dirt naps, etc. Brian

[Michael Martin]

Brian, There is more intial tension, true. But, since the doo gets locked down by the adjuster bolt, as soon as there's any wear at all, the tension on the chain provided by the spring disappears. The spring doesn't maintain tension against the chain. I hope this makes sense. IMHO, the tension in the chain provided by the spring is small compared to the dynamic tension the chain sees while the engine is running. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY ----- Original Message ---- From: boulder_adv_rider Lastly, I wonder about spring tension. My hunch is if you put too much tension on the system, it will accelerate wear on the chain and rubber dampening material on the balancer sprockets (3 of them). . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[David Bell]

However, Michael, if you put more tension on the chain while adjusting the doo, the chain will wear more. In other words, the chain will start off tighter at the moment of adjustment and will have to wear more to loosen itself, so too much spring tension is still an issue, right? ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Martin To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 12:04:56 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Installed my first torsion spring Brian, There is more intial tension, true. But, since the doo gets locked down by the adjuster bolt, as soon as there's any wear at all, the tension on the chain provided by the spring disappears. The spring doesn't maintain tension against the chain. I hope this makes sense. IMHO, the tension in the chain provided by the spring is small compared to the dynamic tension the chain sees while the engine is running. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY ----- Original Message ---- From: boulder_adv_ rider Lastly, I wonder about spring tension. My hunch is if you put too much tension on the system, it will accelerate wear on the chain and rubber dampening material on the balancer sprockets (3 of them). . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:08:46 -0000 "boulder_adv_rider" writes:

> Jeff

SNIP

>So, I need to really understand this upgrade/torsion spring and all

possible failures.

> > So far the only thing two things I question is the spring 'trying' > to > get behind the adjuster and the connection point at the adjuster > slot. The latter doesn't concern me so much. However, I do note > that the improved doohickey pivots a bit on the idler shaft when > clamped by the bolt. By this I mean the adjuster bolt locks-down > the > arc/slot area (bottom section) but there is nothing that holds down > > the top of the doohickey. So it rocks a tiny bit on the shaft which > > allows the torsion spring even more opportunity to get behind the > spring. Could this "play" contribute to the spring becoming exposed > > to the starter ring? I just don't know and don't have experience > with it. Again, your talking to a guy that found his OEM doo in 3 > pieces and spring disconnected upon first exam...it never had a > chance. Most commuters'/light duty riders' doos and spring I've > seen > are still in tact and working. Go and talk to Colorado Power Sports > > and it's never even heard of the "doohickey issue" and claim they > work on them everyday. So again, I want to know how the torsion > will > act in road washes (high vibration), rocks, jumps, woops, dirt naps, > > etc. > > Brian

<><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><> Brian, That 20 number may not be quite right but I didn't want to exaggerate so I was conservative on it. I would tell you that your system probably never had a chance once your doohickey broke. A genuine EagleMike doohickey and spring probably would have saved you lots of issues. I've never heard of an EagleMike doohickey breaking and I don't remember hearing of one of his springs breaking either. EagleMike does supple the torsion spring. I have seen one Studibaker torsion spring and it is very similar to the EagleMike spring. The bend in the end of the spring where it connects with the doohickey is a bit different and it was more work trying to get it to lay flat. I would not put that one in my bike but it'll probably work fine once properly installed too. I've only found a few stock doohickeys broken into pieces. I've seen a few that were bent from the adjuster bolt pressure. I've seen more that were still flat but had a dent from the adjuster bolt being over tightened. And I've seen numerous ones that looked fine but wouldn't adjust even with the bolt completely removed. This last week one of the doohickeys was like this and it moved about 3/16" at the outer part of the arc when we finally got it loose. I also don't recall ever seeing a 2003 KLR with a good spring. Mine was broken when I changed it at 3,200 smiles. This last week both springs were intact but one had been vibrating so much it has worn marks in the case and spring. The large starter gear only turns when the starter is engaged. So even if the spring was touching a leg or two of the gear (most I've seen was three legs) it would only be for a few revolutions each time. Since I've been doing the groove in the side of the doohickey I haven't had to relieve any starter gear legs. I would not assemble an engine with a starter gear leg contacting the spring or doohickey. That in my opinion would be a poor choice on the part of the mechanic. It's easy to check by installing the doohickey and spring and then the starter gear. Rotate the gear and listen for contact. Then once the rotor is installed and the rotor bolt tightened you rotate the gear again and listen. I've never had one contact the spring after the first check was done and contact addressed. The starter gear is a pressed item and isn't made to close tolerances in the axis that causes contact. To make the gear more precise would increase the cost of the part. I think it's a reasonable design for this application. Not that I'm anybody, but... I'm just say'n. : ) My experience is the genuine EagleMike doohickey fits on the shaft with much less clearance than the factory doohickey. (A good thing!) I've only done one 2008 KLR and even with the new "improved" doohickey, in my opinion, the stock doohickey should still be replaced. It is a different construction but the fit on the shaft is sloppier than the previous editions. The EagleMike doohickey easily and reliably takes care of the problem. I don't see doohickeys rocking on the shaft when they are bolted down. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I've never seen it. I don't think you are beating your KLR that much harder then everyone else that it will effect your doohickey or spring. I'd guess the float in the carb would fail first from rough handling. And I can't imagine the instrument cluster lasting very long if you were being so rough that the doohickey or spring was in danger. I'd suggest you give the torsion spring a go and see when it's installed if you can easily slip it off the doohickey with a fingernail when it's under tension. I've tried and I can't once I started putting in the groove. If you can't pull it off easily I don't see how it's gonna pop off on it's own. Well, not pop off and have the rest of the bike in rideable condition. : ) Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT ____________________________________________________________ Easy-to-use, advanced features, flexible phone systems. Click here for more info. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3ohtaYGnUfxL610mJcQgDsuxR4MxqO0CbUo6nGyHQ685g1Tm/

[Michael Martin]

Hi David, Yes, I agree. I just don't know the size of the issue, whether it's significant or not. I don't know the load rating of the chain, the load that the chain experiences as the rotational speed of the shafts change, or the load that the spring adds. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY ----- Original Message ---- From: David Bell To: Michael Martin ; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 1:16:44 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Installed my first torsion spring However, Michael, if you put more tension on the chain while adjusting the doo, the chain will wear more. In other words, the chain will start off tighter at the moment of adjustment and will have to wear more to loosen itself, so too much spring tension is still an issue, right? ----- Original Message ---- From: Michael Martin To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 12:04:56 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Installed my first torsion spring Brian, There is more intial tension, true. But, since the doo gets locked down by the adjuster bolt, as soon as there's any wear at all, the tension on the chain provided by the spring disappears. The spring doesn't maintain tension against the chain. I hope this makes sense. IMHO, the tension in the chain provided by the spring is small compared to the dynamic tension the chain sees while the engine is running. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY ----- Original Message ---- From: boulder_adv_ rider Lastly, I wonder about spring tension. My hunch is if you put too much tension on the system, it will accelerate wear on the chain and rubber dampening material on the balancer sprockets (3 of them). . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[boulder_adv_rider]

Jeff - What did you mean by "your system probably never had a chance."? I replaced my doo pretty close to 3k smiles. I found and removed all 3 pieces. Of course, I found plenty of dampening material in my screen--maybe this is what you mean? Perhaps it damaged the sprockets slapping and even ground the case a bit but otherwise, it didn't doo any damage. When I upgraded to a ME doo, I used the small spring, so clearly the sprockets had worn a bit (+ chain stretch?). I was surprised my most recent screen cleaning didn't find much dampening material, but it could have washed out in oil changes. I got my torsion spring from TPI 4x4. It didn't come with the typical Eagle Manufacturing info, so I was curious. I've never worried about the EM upgraded doo or its spring. Really robust. Now the doo I just did perhaps didn't match the idler shaft by a tiny bit, so when you tighten the adjuster bolt and clamped the arc (bottom), it forced out the top of the doo. Not much but when you consider the torsion spring is already 'trying' to get behind it, it made me curious what it all means. As just posted I installed 2 of 3 new sprockets. It removed some slack but my chain is still eerily close to the bottom of the case. I really want to see what the 3rd new sprocket does for doo adjustability and bottom case clearance. Right now I have ok doo adjustability again which is encouraging. I noticed my ME spring cut a bit of a groove in the case post but seems cosmetic. I realize the starter gear only turns at startup, but if it hits that torsion spring it can't be good. That gear rotates counter clockwise which seemingly (if it actually hit the torsion spring) could rip that tang right out of the doo arc. Bottom-line here is IF the spring does ever rub and considering the number of starts (many!), I can't see it lasting long. The two washers behind the starter gear give it pretty good clearance. Of course, ME's doo reduces the clearance because it's beefier. Yes, good thing. Now, I didn't mean the doo rocked on the idler shaft during operation but rather when the bottom was clamped the top came out a touch. I agree once it's clamped it won't move, however with the torsion spring behind it, once you loosen the bolt and tighten it, it rocks a very tiny bit in the process. Not sure it matters. I'm not sure me being very rough on my KLR matters to the ME doo and spring, but clearly 20k tough miles has been hard on the balancer ecosystem, 6-sets of tires, 2 chains, 3 brake pads, new front shock seals, KIA stock shock and my HD spring now fading?, etc...I'm at the extreme use side and need to a running inventory of ghosts in the machine (i.e., major points of failure). The fact I'm replacing 3 of 4 sprockets because there's no slack mitigation capacity remaining means a lot. Of course, action at the 7k rpm level doesn't quite promote healing either. I don't think the float is very vulnerable as it buffets in gasoline. It's designed to rock millions of cycles. Many other things are far more vulnerable and I have learned many. My headlight bolt and arc bracket disintegrated. Had it welded once in San Diego the first time and I just welded on a 3/16 flange that ME would be proud of. Plus added a lock nut on the end of the bolt in case it vibrates loose. A lot of thinks simply disintegrate when you run thousands of miles at 70 mph across desert washboard in killer heat/harsh conditions. My instrument cluster is a mess! I keep waiting for it to jettison. My tall windshield has chafed itself with the faring plastic and the front black plastic vibrates against the front faring as well. I just disintegrated the Garmin motorcycle mount for my street pilot. It vibrated so much the plastic receiving pins ground off and it rattled obnoxiously--so bad I duct taped it on this last trip. You can't imagine the stories my skid plate has. My center stand's under-carriage is disfigured and it sheared off twice! my foot peg bolts. I had to weld stops to the center stand to stop it from moving back and shearing the latest 10mm 12.9 bolts I've installed. The point I'm making is the bike takes an extraordinary beating even though I try my absolute best to prepare and maintain it for this type of use. To this end, I'm not interested in introducing any new failure points. I think I'm going to go with your recommendation and my feeling the torsion spring is the better setup. I'd just prefer more history/experience before changing. This one is not a complete no- brainer like the ME doo. I'll seriously consider the groove in any event. Really the vibration and pounding exerts forces in the balancer ecosytem I can't comprehend. Personally, I'd like a tiny camera running in there 24/7! Anyway, I'm not sure I'd know if it did pop off during a ride. A stethoscope would help because most certainly I'd hear the chain slapping. I'm too focused when riding, I usually only respond to smoke and flames. Brian

[Jeff Saline]

On Sat, 20 Sep 2008 06:54:30 -0000 "boulder_adv_rider" writes:

> Jeff - What did you mean by "your system probably never had a > chance."? I replaced my doo pretty close to 3k smiles. I found and > > removed all 3 pieces. Of course, I found plenty of dampening > material in my screen--maybe this is what you mean? Perhaps it > damaged the sprockets slapping and even ground the case a bit but > otherwise, it didn't doo any damage. When I upgraded to a ME doo, I > > used the small spring, so clearly the sprockets had worn a bit (+ > chain stretch?).

HUGE MONSTER SNIP I'm too focused when riding, I usually only respond to smoke and flames. Brian <><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Brian, You do beat on your KLR pretty hard. But I still don't think what you do will dismount the spring from the doohickey without a KLR killing incident. Just my gut feeling about this. I think a properly mounted torsion spring is a very solid mount/system. I misinterpreted your earlier doo replacement comments. I thought it was in pieces at 20K meaning in my book it could have been broken for 20K miles. I've only had to install an EagleMike short spring one time. That was on my bike at about 19,000 smiles I think. The long spring was still under tension but was getting close to being relaxed. A few months later the torsion spring became available. : ) It's gonna be interesting to hear about the results from your replacement of all the sprockets. Regular (maybe 3,000 smile) doohickey adjustments should keep your balancer chain properly tensioned. Even if the torsion spring does pop off (I don't think it will) I don't think you'll have an issue until the next time you try to adjust it. And then you might not even know it didn't do anything. The adjuster lock bolt is what holds the doo in place. That's one of the problems with folks not replacing the stock doo and spring and not going in to inspect the system. They have no way of knowing if it's working or not from the outside. Unfortunately many aren't working as designed. On the other hand I suppose it's fortunate that many that aren't working continue to allow the bike to be used with only a few incidents of catastrophic failures reported. I'm just curious if the torsion spring you got from TPI was in a small clear plastic bag, heat sealed closed and included a drill bit? Probably a small 1" x 3" or so label saying it was a torsion spring or something. I'm pretty sure that's how EagleMike is packaging his torsion springs. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT ____________________________________________________________ New US travel warnings. Avoid all the hassles with a safe Bahamas vacation. Click Here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nJs5oqbuBAdSyBhteS8MjF1uWJAYtUPy9PEp0R4aF1YVJa8/

[Michael]

Just going to burn some fossil fuel today for my own enjoyment. Well I am voting for my own enjoyment. Michael