Wilsons Sandbox

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:57:56 -0000 "bensherwyn" writes:

> Hey there, > > I just took my 03' KLR into the shop for a diagnostic. The bike > was > eating through about a quart of oil every 3 fill-ups and I was > beginning to feel like I was riding a 2-stroke again. The > mechanics > say the leakdown test was at 18% leak and the normal should be > around > 4%. Therefore, I'm waiting for an estimate on labor & parts for > new > valve seals and rings, etc. > The shop (godspeed, oakland) charges $90/hr (seems to be the > going > rate in these parts!), and the last few times I've taken my bike in > (to different shops) I end up in debt for a couple of months. Is > it > worth it to have the shops do this work... Or am I stupid for not > making an attempt at this stuff on my own? I guess, I just want to > be > sure that my bike wont leave me stranded on a death valley camping > trip or something. I've got some experience rebuilding two-stroke > motors (old lambrettas/vespas, etc) but I've been hesitant to > expose > the internal organs of my daily transportation. > > Thanks for the advice! > > Ben Sherwyn

<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Ben, Just a couple of thoughts on this subject with you in mind. It sounds like you have a handle on the mechanics involved since you've done 2 stroke work. Not really much difference when it comes down to it. I'd want to know the actual results from the leak down test. You mentioned 18% leakdown but from where? I think I'd consider pulling the top end and then seeing what you find. I bet if you take your time you can make this happen and save some bucks. You might need a machinist to measure the bore of the cylinder and also the piston and see how they are fitting. Check for roundness and taper. I don't have any specs in front of me but I'd guess they are in the factory manuals or Clymers. Before I'd pull that engine apart I'd probably ask a friend to follow me and watch the exhaust for smoke. Of particular interest would be smoke when accelerating after waiting at a light or decelerating under no load conditions with the throttle closed. I'd also probably try to do a downhill run with the throttle closed and then snapped open. Puffs of smoke during any of these tests will help you determine wear the oil is moving where it shouldn't be. It could be rings, valve guides or a combination. Maybe I suppose it could also be a defective breather system. A good machinist could also remove the valves and measure the valve stems and guide bores and tell you the clearances. Again I don't have specs but would guess they should be 0.0015" or so. Maybe a tad tighter. I just don't know on a KLR. If I had an issue with the top end I'd probably seriously consider getting the 685 kit done to my parts. I don't have the contact info for the guy that's doing it but I know a couple of guys on this list have done it with excellent results. I'd think that would be very comparable cost wise to doing a top end job with stock parts. If I did the 685 kit I wouldn't be telling my friends. I'd just ride it and enjoy the extra power and performance. : ) Farming out work like boring a cylinder or doing valves is pretty common. What you need to consider is who you farm the work to. There are lots of guys doing this kind of work without the experience or knowledge of the fine points of making it work well for a long time. Just cause a guy has the machines doesn't make him a machinist. On the airhead list a shop in CA was just mentioning how they just had a set of heads in for work. Another shop just did the heads a few thousand miles earlier. The intake valves were in the exhaust guides and seating on the tulip part of the valve. Of course this meant the exhaust valves were in the intakes and sitting deep in the intake ports. The shop owner was amazed they even allowed the engine to run. One last thought. My 03 KLR650 started to use a bit of oil last summer after a high heat incident in Wyoming on the return from the Hole In The Wall adventure. I figured the oil got so hot it carbonized in the ring pack freezing the oil control ring preventing it from controlling oil movement on the cylinder wall. I used a dose of Auto-RX www.auto-rx.com/ to dissolve carbon deposits. Blake told the list about this product maybe 1 1/2 years ago. I was kind of thinking it was snake oil but it seems to have worked for my bike. The producer of the Auto-RX tells you it won't fix mechanical issues but will clean the engine. It seems kind of pricey when you consider a 12 oz bottle costs about $25. But that's a lot less expensive than a top end job. You might consider trying a dose (7 oz. in the KLR engine) of the Auto-RX and seeing if that reduces or eliminates your oil use problem. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

> If I had an issue with the top end I'd probably seriously consider > getting the 685 kit done to my parts. I don't have the contact info

for

> the guy

http://www.schnitzracing.com/ Cary Aspy is the service manager there and is the one doing the 685 and 705 kits. I have installed a couple of his 685 kits and give him my highest recommendation. He does top notch work. With basic tools a Clymers manual and Carys excellent instruction sheet it is possible for you to do it yourself and have a better than new engine. Ken

I'm just chiming in to this thread and don't know squat about your details but what comes to my mind is $2 of oil in about 600 miles of riding, so what? Cheaper than the many hundreds you will give the shop. And you won't have to change the oil for probably 7500 miles, as it is changing it by itself! How about using thicker oil? Are you using 5w-30 oil in the desert? Are you using that silly synthetic oil? Does this bike have 5k miles on it or 35k miles on it? If 5k miles and you are one of those guys fascinated with synthetic oil and you have been running synthetic since new, there is your problem. Motor never broke in. Put dino oil in it and hammer on it. Might get lucky. Has worked in a couple of my drag motors. I am assuming it isn't smoking enough that you can see it. Is plug oily? Oil on back of bike? Also, I always suspect any shop info. (I just don't trust mechanics). Have another compression/leak down test done somewhere else to verify. Look for obvious cheap fixes. Check air cleaner and PVC/breather assemblies for correct operation/plugging. If crankcase isn't breathing, you can get too much positive pressure in crankcase and force oil past rings. Perhaps it is time for a valve adjustment, and at the same time replace the valve guide seals when open? Has the bike been babied too much? Maybe it needs a little hard riding to clean it out/loosen things up. Rings can stick. Try the cleaner Jeff Saline suggested. It won't hurt. The other question is have you actually been hammering on it too much? And by that I mean are you freeway cruising at 85 mph all day long, revving the motor 6000 rpm and higher for long periods of time? If so, get used to using oil. Nothing you are going to do about it. Tearing down an engine I think is a last ditch effort to fix a problem. Rarely can an engine be torn down and be rebuilt and be as good as an original factory engine. Yeah, I know I'm going to get an argument about that, but how many rebuilt car engines you know of that actually went 150,000 to 200,000 miles? (don't try to B.S. me). Try more like 30k to 60k miles. I'm not sure about this, but haven't other posters here reported a price nearing $1000 for a complete good quality top end rebuild for the engine parts and labor? I would seriously consider parting out and buying a new bike. (if this is a 40k or higher mileage bike I would just say part it out and just go buy a new one, but that is just me) Jeff A20 In a message dated 1/18/2008 9:51:30 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, salinej1@... writes: On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 22:57:56 -0000 "bensherwyn" writes:

> Hey there, > > I just took my 03' KLR into the shop for a diagnostic. The bike > was > eating through about a quart of oil every 3 fill-ups and I was > beginning to feel like I was riding a 2-stroke again. The > mechanics > say the leakdown test was at 18% leak and the normal should be > around > 4%. Therefore, I'm waiting for an estimate on labor & parts for > new > valve seals and rings, etc. > The shop (godspeed, oakland) charges $90/hr (seems to be the > going > rate in these parts!), and the last few times I've taken my bike in > (to different shops) I end up in debt for a couple of months. Is > it > worth it to have the shops do this work... Or am I stupid for not > making an attempt at this stuff on my own? I guess, I just want to > be > sure that my bike wont leave me stranded on a death valley camping > trip or something. I've got some experience rebuilding two-stroke > motors (old lambrettas/vespas, etc) but I've been hesitant to > expose > the internal organs of my daily transportation. > > Thanks for the advice! > > Ben Sherwyn

<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Ben, Just a couple of thoughts on this subject with you in mind. It sounds like you have a handle on the mechanics involved since you've done 2 stroke work. Not really much difference when it comes down to it. I'd want to know the actual results from the leak down test. You mentioned 18% leakdown but from where? I think I'd consider pulling the top end and then seeing what you find. I bet if you take your time you can make this happen and save some bucks. You might need a machinist to measure the bore of the cylinder and also the piston and see how they are fitting. Check for roundness and taper. I don't have any specs in front of me but I'd guess they are in the factory manuals or Clymers. Before I'd pull that engine apart I'd probably ask a friend to follow me and watch the exhaust for smoke. Of particular interest would be smoke when accelerating after waiting at a light or decelerating under no load conditions with the throttle closed. I'd also probably try to do a downhill run with the throttle closed and then snapped open. Puffs of smoke during any of these tests will help you determine wear the oil is moving where it shouldn't be. It could be rings, valve guides or a combination. Maybe I suppose it could also be a defective breather system. A good machinist could also remove the valves and measure the valve stems and guide bores and tell you the clearances. Again I don't have specs but would guess they should be 0.0015" or so. Maybe a tad tighter. I just don't know on a KLR. If I had an issue with the top end I'd probably seriously consider getting the 685 kit done to my parts. I don't have the contact info for the guy that's doing it but I know a couple of guys on this list have done it with excellent results. I'd think that would be very comparable cost wise to doing a top end job with stock parts. If I did the 685 kit I wouldn't be telling my friends. I'd just ride it and enjoy the extra power and performance. : ) Farming out work like boring a cylinder or doing valves is pretty common. What you need to consider is who you farm the work to. There are lots of guys doing this kind of work without the experience or knowledge of the fine points of making it work well for a long time. Just cause a guy has the machines doesn't make him a machinist. On the airhead list a shop in CA was just mentioning how they just had a set of heads in for work. Another shop just did the heads a few thousand miles earlier. The intake valves were in the exhaust guides and seating on the tulip part of the valve. Of course this meant the exhaust valves were in the intakes and sitting deep in the intake ports. The shop owner was amazed they even allowed the engine to run. One last thought. My 03 KLR650 started to use a bit of oil last summer after a high heat incident in Wyoming on the return from the Hole In The Wall adventure. I figured the oil got so hot it carbonized in the ring pack freezing the oil control ring preventing it from controlling oil movement on the cylinder wall. I used a dose of Auto-RX www.auto-rx.move to dissolve carbon deposits. Blake told the list about this product maybe 1 1/2 years ago. I was kind of thinking it was snake oil but it seems to have worked for my bike. The producer of the Auto-RX tells you it won't fix mechanical issues but will clean the engine. It seems kind of pricey when you consider a 12 oz bottle costs about $25. But that's a lot less expensive than a top end job. You might consider trying a dose (7 oz. in the KLR engine) of the Auto-RX and seeing if that reduces or eliminates your oil use problem. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.Air The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, jokerloco9@... wrote:

> > I'm just chiming in to this thread and don't know squat about your

details

> but what comes to my mind is $2 of oil in about 600 miles of riding,

so what?

> Cheaper than the many hundreds you will give the shop. And you

won't have

> to change the oil for probably 7500 miles, as it is changing it by

itself!

> How about using thicker oil? Are you using 5w-30 oil in the

desert? Are you

> using that silly synthetic oil? Does this bike have 5k miles on it

or 35k

> miles on it? If 5k miles and you are one of those guys fascinated

with

> synthetic oil and you have been running synthetic since new, there

is your problem.

> Motor never broke in. Put dino oil in it and hammer on it. Might

get lucky.

> Has worked in a couple of my drag motors. > > I am assuming it isn't smoking enough that you can see it. Is plug

oily?

> Oil on back of bike? Also, I always suspect any shop info. (I

just don't

> trust mechanics). Have another compression/leak down test done

somewhere else to

> verify. Look for obvious cheap fixes. Check air cleaner and

PVC/breather

> assemblies for correct operation/plugging. If crankcase isn't

breathing, you

> can get too much positive pressure in crankcase and force oil past

rings.

> Perhaps it is time for a valve adjustment, and at the same time

replace the

> valve guide seals when open? Has the bike been babied too much?

Maybe it needs

> a little hard riding to clean it out/loosen things up. Rings can

stick.

> Try the cleaner Jeff Saline suggested. It won't hurt. > > The other question is have you actually been hammering on it too

much? And

> by that I mean are you freeway cruising at 85 mph all day long,

revving the

> motor 6000 rpm and higher for long periods of time? If so, get

used to using

> oil. Nothing you are going to do about it. > > Tearing down an engine I think is a last ditch effort to fix a

problem.

> Rarely can an engine be torn down and be rebuilt and be as good as

an original

> factory engine. Yeah, I know I'm going to get an argument about

that, but how

> many rebuilt car engines you know of that actually went 150,000 to

200,000

> miles? (don't try to B.S. me). Try more like 30k to 60k miles. > > I'm not sure about this, but haven't other posters here reported a

price

> nearing $1000 for a complete good quality top end rebuild for the

engine parts

> and labor? I would seriously consider parting out and buying a new

bike.

> > (if this is a 40k or higher mileage bike I would just say part it

out and

> just go buy a new one, but that is just me) > > Jeff A20

Nice perspective. Jeff also. If you have the time and inclination more troubleshooting may allow you to hone-in on exactly where the problem(s) is. Ed

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, jokerloco9@... wrote:

> The other question is have you actually been hammering on it too

much? And

> by that I mean are you freeway cruising at 85 mph all day long,

revving the

> motor 6000 rpm and higher for long periods of time? If so, get

used to using

> oil. Nothing you are going to do about it.

That's true enough. I use about a quart of oil every 500 miles when I'm hammering it at 80mph all day long. Otherwise I don't use any oil at all.

> Tearing down an engine I think is a last ditch effort to fix a

problem.

> Rarely can an engine be torn down and be rebuilt and be as good as

an original

> factory engine. Yeah, I know I'm going to get an argument about

that, but how

> many rebuilt car engines you know of that actually went 150,000 to

200,000

> miles? (don't try to B.S. me). Try more like 30k to 60k miles.

My mother had the cam belt break at 150,000 miles in her 1988 Honda Civic station wagon. It of course ruined the valves and holed the pistons since this is an interference engine. The guy who rebuilt the engine was a meticulous perfectionist. My brother reports that when his daughter traded the car for a less-used Volvo, it had 300,000 miles on it. So yeah, it is possible for an engine to be torn down and rebuilt and be as good as an original factory engine, just rare. If you buy a rebuilt "crate engine" from Joe's Chop Shop, the mild rebuild you get (basically enough to get it running) is nowhere, nohow close to the $2800 job that my mom's mechanic did.

> > I'm not sure about this, but haven't other posters here reported a

price

> nearing $1000 for a complete good quality top end rebuild for the

engine parts

> and labor? I would seriously consider parting out and buying a new

bike. Or just use it as an excuse for the Schnitz Racing treatment heh! Easy to justify that kind of radical rebuild of a used piston, cylinder, and head. My KLR with 40,000 miles still runs great, but if it ever stopped running great because of head or cylinder problems, I'd have no problem spending money on the cylinder and head stuff. If you have a new bike, on the other hand, it's a bit less easy to justify it...

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "bensherwyn" wrote: I too have to chime in. First off, if it isn't laying down a smoke screen, live with it. KLR's are notorious for being unpredictable. Some burn oil, some don't. Syn goes faster than dino, high speed goes through more than normal. Very few conventional mechanics really understand the KLR motor. Like the airhead BMW, they have their own rules, more or less. If you are anal and have to have things just so, you may be better with a new bike. Your 03 is still pretty salable and you may not be totally satisfied with the results of a rebuild after you spend an unreasonable amount of $$$. I would not find it worth the gamble. There are lots of variables here and only you can decide.

> Hey there, > > I just took my 03' KLR into the shop for a diagnostic. The bike was > eating through about a quart of oil every 3 fill-ups and I was > beginning to feel like I was riding a 2-stroke again. The mechanics > say the leakdown test was at 18% leak and the normal should be

around

> 4%. Therefore, I'm waiting for an estimate on labor & parts for new > valve seals and rings, etc. > The shop (godspeed, oakland) charges $90/hr (seems to be the going > rate in these parts!), and the last few times I've taken my bike in > (to different shops) I end up in debt for a couple of months. Is it > worth it to have the shops do this work... Or am I stupid for not > making an attempt at this stuff on my own? I guess, I just want to

be

> sure that my bike wont leave me stranded on a death valley camping > trip or something. I've got some experience rebuilding two-stroke > motors (old lambrettas/vespas, etc) but I've been hesitant to expose > the internal organs of my daily transportation. > > Thanks for the advice! > > Ben Sherwyn >

Hey Ben. My bike is using about a quart every TWO fill ups if I'm really riding, and though I recognize that these things use tons of oil, I am also looking into what my options are. I've never heard a single bad thing about Schnitz's 685--the parts are supposed to be significantly better than stock, actually. There's a number of posts on advrider and also KLRWorld detailing the upgrade. I priced it out a while ago, and the stock parts (assuming you had to replace an untrue piston etc) are like this (stock) KLR Engine parts piston $89.48 rings $44.52 piston pin $12.65 snap rings $2.98 (both) gasket, cylinder base $5.32 $154.95 Sending your jug out to Cary will run about $350 I believe for basic treatment. However, for all you know your valve seals are leaking and the rings/piston are fine. For this, you really need to do a leakdown test, not just a compression test. The idea of doing it with a homemade compressor tool seems fine to me, but I haven't done it. AN IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER THAT I DONT THINK ANYONE HAS MENTIONED IS THE KACR. These bikes have an auto compression release (the Kawasaki Automatic Comrpression Release) that's built into the head. You've probably noticed it if you've ever changed your valves. This gizmo is leftover from the when the KLR had a kickstart, and nowadays it makes it slightly easier for the starter to turn the big beast. The way that it does this is by cracking an exhaust valve slightly below something like 400RPM (not sure exactly where it stops functioning). This means that if you do a leakdown test on a KLR, it'll leak like all hell through the exhaust valve even at the peak of its compression stroke. You need to pull the valve cover off and manually wire the KACR disabled while you do the test. If you don't do this, the leakdown test is meaningless. If you decide it does need a rebuild, I'd either do it yourself or track down someone with a long established record of excellence. I don't agree that rebuilt motors can't last as long, but I *do* think rebuilding an engine for longevity takes more than just understanding how to assemble things, unless you're essentially replacing everything. If I rebuild mine, I'm sending the cylinder and head out to Schnitz for the work. I'm not eager to pay the shipping, but it's cheap insurance and they have a stellar reputation. But I won't so much as turn a nut until I've wired the KACR and done a leakdown. Luke PS It sounds like snake oil to me, but a couple of folks on here have reported miraculous results with a stuff called Cycle RX. I'm going to run a bottle of it because, why not? bensherwyn wrote: Hey there, I just took my 03' KLR into the shop for a diagnostic. The bike was eating through about a quart of oil every 3 fill-ups and I was beginning to feel like I was riding a 2-stroke again. The mechanics say the leakdown test was at 18% leak and the normal should be around 4%. Therefore, I'm waiting for an estimate on labor & parts for new valve seals and rings, etc. The shop (godspeed, oakland) charges $90/hr (seems to be the going rate in these parts!), and the last few times I've taken my bike in (to different shops) I end up in debt for a couple of months. Is it worth it to have the shops do this work... Or am I stupid for not making an attempt at this stuff on my own? I guess, I just want to be sure that my bike wont leave me stranded on a death valley camping trip or something. I've got some experience rebuilding two-stroke motors (old lambrettas/vespas, etc) but I've been hesitant to expose the internal organs of my daily transportation. Thanks for the advice! Ben Sherwyn List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links Brooklyn NY 92 CB750 nighthawk--naked simpleton 03 KLR650--fat girl with a dirty mind --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Luke in Brooklyn wrote:

> > Hey Ben. > > My bike is using about a quart every TWO fill ups if I'm really

riding, and though I recognize that these things use tons of oil, I am also looking into what my options are. I've never heard a single bad thing about Schnitz's 685--the parts are supposed to be significantly better than stock, actually. There's a number of posts on advrider and also KLRWorld detailing the upgrade.

> > I priced it out a while ago, and the stock parts (assuming you had

to replace an untrue piston etc) are like this

> (stock) KLR Engine parts > piston $89.48 > rings $44.52 > piston pin $12.65 > snap rings $2.98 (both) > gasket, cylinder base $5.32 > > $154.95 > > Sending your jug out to Cary will run about $350 I believe for basic

treatment.

> > However, for all you know your valve seals are leaking and the

rings/piston are fine. For this, you really need to do a leakdown test, not just a compression test. The idea of doing it with a homemade compressor tool seems fine to me, but I haven't done it. AN IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER THAT I DONT THINK ANYONE HAS MENTIONED IS THE KACR. These bikes have an auto compression release (the Kawasaki Automatic Comrpression Release) that's built into the head. You've probably noticed it if you've ever changed your valves. This gizmo is leftover from the when the KLR had a kickstart, and nowadays it makes it slightly easier for the starter to turn the big beast. The way that it does this is by cracking an exhaust valve slightly below something like 400RPM (not sure exactly where it stops functioning). This means that if you do a leakdown test on a KLR, it'll leak like all hell through the exhaust valve even at the peak of its compression stroke. You need to pull the valve

> cover off and manually wire the KACR disabled while you do the

test. If you don't do this, the leakdown test is meaningless.

> > If you decide it does need a rebuild, I'd either do it yourself or

track down someone with a long established record of excellence. I don't agree that rebuilt motors can't last as long, but I *do* think rebuilding an engine for longevity takes more than just understanding how to assemble things, unless you're essentially replacing everything. If I rebuild mine, I'm sending the cylinder and head out to Schnitz for the work. I'm not eager to pay the shipping, but it's cheap insurance and they have a stellar reputation. But I won't so much as turn a nut until I've wired the KACR and done a leakdown.

> > Luke > > PS It sounds like snake oil to me, but a couple of folks on here

have reported miraculous results with a stuff called Cycle RX. I'm going to run a bottle of it because, why not?

> > > bensherwyn wrote: Hey there, > > I just took my 03' KLR into the shop for a diagnostic. The bike was > eating through about a quart of oil every 3 fill-ups and I was > beginning to feel like I was riding a 2-stroke again. The mechanics > say the leakdown test was at 18% leak and the normal should be around > 4%. Therefore, I'm waiting for an estimate on labor & parts for new > valve seals and rings, etc. > The shop (godspeed, oakland) charges $90/hr (seems to be the going > rate in these parts!), and the last few times I've taken my bike in > (to different shops) I end up in debt for a couple of months. Is it > worth it to have the shops do this work... Or am I stupid for not > making an attempt at this stuff on my own? I guess, I just want to be > sure that my bike wont leave me stranded on a death valley camping > trip or something. I've got some experience rebuilding two-stroke > motors (old lambrettas/vespas, etc) but I've been hesitant to expose > the internal organs of my daily transportation. > > Thanks for the advice! > > Ben Sherwyn > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Brooklyn NY > 92 CB750 nighthawk--naked simpleton > 03 KLR650--fat girl with a dirty mind > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

The KLR600 manual describes doing a compression test on pages 3-17 & 3-18 using the kick-starter. Since the KLR650 doesn't have a kick'r, why not get a compression reading by "bump-starting" it? Never done it though. ED