Wilsons Sandbox

HELP! I need help fixing a leaking cylinder head cover, a.k.a. "cam cover" on my '08 KLR. After completing a valve job, I put some RTV on the engine side and let it setup for about 10 minutes and buttoned it up. It started right up, and I wasn't watching the engine. I went to fill up with gas since the tank was about empty. I didn't see the point in having to pull a full gas tank off for the valve job! Anyway, I got to the station and started fiddling with the pay at the pump and I noticed OIL EVERYWHERE! I cancelled the transaction and rode the 3 1/2 miles back home. I didn't want to waste time and ruin my engine if it was a bad leak, and I didn't feel like pushing her. ) My sight window for the oil was still at the top. It just looked like I lost alot of oil. Anyway, I found that it was leaking in the front left portion. I took it off and scraped the RTV off to try again. I thought I prolly used too much RTV. This time I used a very thin layer. I buttoned it back up to try again. Note: I didn't have a 12mm 1/4" drive socket for my torque wrench, and so was guessing. If I errored in the amount of torque, I errored in the direction of not tight enough. I'm scared spitless about stripping it. I fired her up again and watched for leaks this time. It leaked again. Right away. I went to Autozone and bought a 12mm 1/4" drive socket for my torque wrench. I thought I would try again. I cleaned the surfaces and applied a very thin layer of RTV on the engine portion and ALSO on the rubber gasket itself. I let it setup for about 10 minutes and buttoned it back up. I torqued the bolts to 55 inch pounds. That's slightly less than spec as it has been said that they can be stripped if you go all the way to spec. I fired her up and she immediately started leaking AGAIN. . Oh, I'm leaving out the days between each attempt to spare you the gory details (the cam cap bolt I broke and had to extract, etc). I've posted at klr650.net, and I have been consulting with Eagle Mike. He has been a HUGE help. Especially with getting the bolt out. He even mailed me a special 90 degree drill to use! (If you are reading this Mike, I'm putting it in the mail today!) But I haven't spoken to EM since my latest failure last night. So I'm just trying to gather some opinions as to what I should try. For example, should I try it WITHOUT RTV? Some go without, but if it's leaking, you would think you would need it. I have had one other suggestion that is tempting and makes some sense, but scares me. I was told that I'm going to need to go tighter on the bolts and that will stop the leak. And hey, if I strip it, there's always a Helicoil. ) Well, I'm not even sure what a Helicoil is and have never used one and wouldn't know where to go to get one! I would hate to have to hog it out and try to use some bolt from the hardware store instead. I really don't want to strip it. Having said that, it does seem that a bit more pressure may stop the leak. My other thought is to put on a thin layer of RTV on the engine side and bolt the cover on right away and not let it setup. Then when it's bolted on, let it cure for awhile before starting it. Am I supposed to do that? I have bolted it on and fired it up right away. Am I supposed to let the RTV "cure" or whatever before starting the engine? Can you tell that I'm struggling for a solution? It's been three weeks now and it's killing me. If you have any ideas, I'm all ears. Thank you in advance. I appreciate the seriousness and expertise of this list. Don+ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael, Thank you for the prompt reply. It makes alot of sense. I would like some clarification on one thing. Where to put the gasket sealer. You say on the valve cover. The cover itself obviously has a groove in it where the rubber gasket is placed. So you mean to put the gasket sealer on the rubber gasket itself, the outside, that will come in direct contact with the bottom half (the engine). Correct? Sorry to be dense, but I just want to make sure that you don't mean basically fill the groove with it and squash the rubber gasket into place and bolt it together. Sadly, today is Monday and the Honda dealership is closed. Should I just wait for tomorrow, or is there some other brand at NAPA or wherever that you recommend? OK, one more dumb question: what do you use to degrease the surface? I have some brake cleaner. I could spray some on a cloth and wipe with it. Whaddathink? Don+ _____ From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Nelson Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:32 AM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Leaky Cam Cover - No KLR for 3 weeks and I need your help! Remove all the RTV from all surfaces, degrease the cover and the cover gasket. Use a little REAL gasket sealer like the Honda black high temp stuff. Put it ONLY on the valve cover and make it just a THIN coat. Put the gasket on the valve cover and bolt it down. Don't wait for it to set up. You want it to set up in place, bolted down. More torque on the cover fasteners isn't the answer. They have a shoulder on them and only go down so far before they bottom out. Feel the shoulder bottom out and then gently and evenly snug them down in a cross pattern (that part should be easy for you ). I just use a combination wrench, but I have been doing this stuff for a lot of years and can tell by feel what's right. That's the procedure I use on my '03 and it doesn't leak a drop. -- "It's not what I don't understand about religion that bothers me, it's what I do understand." -- Mark Twain San Francisco, CA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 09:50:04AM -0600, Don Pendergraft wrote:

> Michael, > Thank you for the prompt reply. It makes alot of sense. I would like some > clarification on one thing. Where to put the gasket sealer. You say on the > valve cover. The cover itself obviously has a groove in it where the rubber > gasket is placed.

Put a THIN coat there. Maybe a dab more at the corners of the 1/2 moon transitions. THIN COAT.

> So you mean to put the gasket sealer on the rubber gasket > itself, the outside, that will come in direct contact with the bottom half > (the engine). Correct?

No. Take the valve cover and the gasket and the sealer into another room. Do what I said above. Bring it back to where the bike is and put it on the cylinder head with nothing between the gasket and the cylinder head.

> Sadly, today is Monday and the Honda dealership is closed. Should I just > wait for tomorrow, or is there some other brand at NAPA or wherever that you > recommend?

Permatex. Take the cover and the gasket to an auto supply store and they will know the appropriate stuff. Honda and Yamaha don't mfg their gasket sealers anyway, they are made by the same outfits that make the auto stuff at NAPA.

> OK, one more dumb question: what do you use to degrease the surface? I have > some brake cleaner. I could spray some on a cloth and wipe with it.

Brake cleaner is great and is what I usually use. Don't use carb cleaner as it is often unkind to non-metal parts and can act as paint remover. Michael -- "It's not what I don't understand about religion that bothers me, it's what I do understand." -- Mark Twain San Francisco, CA

Heh. I'm so glad I asked. I was wrong in my perception. I'm confident that tonight the beast will be conquered! I will let you all the results tomorrow. Thanks! Don+ _____ From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Nelson Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 10:56 AM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Leaky Cam Cover - No KLR for 3 weeks and I need your help!

On Mon, Nov 19, 2007 at 09:50:04AM -0600, Don Pendergraft wrote: > Michael, > Thank you for the prompt reply. It makes alot of sense. I would like some > clarification on one thing. Where to put the gasket sealer. You say on the > valve cover. The cover itself obviously has a groove in it where the rubber > gasket is placed. Put a THIN coat there. Maybe a dab more at the corners of the 1/2 moon transitions. THIN COAT. > So you mean to put the gasket sealer on the rubber gasket > itself, the outside, that will come in direct contact with the bottom half > (the engine). Correct? No. Take the valve cover and the gasket and the sealer into another room. Do what I said above. Bring it back to where the bike is and put it on the cylinder head with nothing between the gasket and the cylinder head. > Sadly, today is Monday and the Honda dealership is closed. Should I just > wait for tomorrow, or is there some other brand at NAPA or wherever that you > recommend? Permatex. Take the cover and the gasket to an auto supply store and they will know the appropriate stuff. Honda and Yamaha don't mfg their gasket sealers anyway, they are made by the same outfits that make the auto stuff at NAPA. > OK, one more dumb question: what do you use to degrease the surface? I have > some brake cleaner. I could spray some on a cloth and wipe with it. Brake cleaner is great and is what I usually use. Don't use carb cleaner as it is often unkind to non-metal parts and can act as paint remover. Michael -- "It's not what I don't understand about religion that bothers me, it's what I do understand." -- Mark Twain San Francisco, CA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Don, I'm going from memory here so I might be less then accurate but if I remember right the cam cover is bolted on via spacers and seals to the cam caps, could one of these seals be damaged and leaking. On 4 cyl Kawasaki's I've worked on you had to be especially careful sealing the rubber 1/2 circle seals ay the end of the cams, these tend to weep if not sealed properly. Something I heard of with a KLR600 was a warped cover from suspected over tightening, if you have the cover off set it face down on a piece of glass and make sure the covers sealing surface sits flat, it should have no gaps on the entire gasket surface, check for a gap with a feeler gauge if necessary. Good luck with the leak and have a great evening....Greg Don Pendergraft wrote: HELP! I need help fixing a leaking cylinder head cover, a.k.a. "cam cover" on my '08 KLR. After completing a valve job, I put some RTV on the engine side and let it setup for about 10 minutes and buttoned it up. It started right up, and I wasn't watching the engine. I went to fill up with gas since the tank was about empty. I didn't see the point in having to pull a full gas tank off for the valve job! Anyway, I got to the station and started fiddling with the pay at the pump and I noticed OIL EVERYWHERE! I cancelled the transaction and rode the 3 1/2 miles back home. I didn't want to waste time and ruin my engine if it was a bad leak, and I didn't feel like pushing her. ) My sight window for the oil was still at the top. It just looked like I lost alot of oil. Anyway, I found that it was leaking in the front left portion. I took it off and scraped the RTV off to try again. I thought I prolly used too much RTV. This time I used a very thin layer. I buttoned it back up to try again. Note: I didn't have a 12mm 1/4" drive socket for my torque wrench, and so was guessing. If I errored in the amount of torque, I errored in the direction of not tight enough. I'm scared spitless about stripping it. I fired her up again and watched for leaks this time. It leaked again. Right away. I went to Autozone and bought a 12mm 1/4" drive socket for my torque wrench. I thought I would try again. I cleaned the surfaces and applied a very thin layer of RTV on the engine portion and ALSO on the rubber gasket itself. I let it setup for about 10 minutes and buttoned it back up. I torqued the bolts to 55 inch pounds. That's slightly less than spec as it has been said that they can be stripped if you go all the way to spec. I fired her up and she immediately started leaking AGAIN. . Oh, I'm leaving out the days between each attempt to spare you the gory details (the cam cap bolt I broke and had to extract, etc). I've posted at klr650.net, and I have been consulting with Eagle Mike. He has been a HUGE help. Especially with getting the bolt out. He even mailed me a special 90 degree drill to use! (If you are reading this Mike, I'm putting it in the mail today!) But I haven't spoken to EM since my latest failure last night. So I'm just trying to gather some opinions as to what I should try. For example, should I try it WITHOUT RTV? Some go without, but if it's leaking, you would think you would need it. I have had one other suggestion that is tempting and makes some sense, but scares me. I was told that I'm going to need to go tighter on the bolts and that will stop the leak. And hey, if I strip it, there's always a Helicoil. ) Well, I'm not even sure what a Helicoil is and have never used one and wouldn't know where to go to get one! I would hate to have to hog it out and try to use some bolt from the hardware store instead. I really don't want to strip it. Having said that, it does seem that a bit more pressure may stop the leak. My other thought is to put on a thin layer of RTV on the engine side and bolt the cover on right away and not let it setup. Then when it's bolted on, let it cure for awhile before starting it. Am I supposed to do that? I have bolted it on and fired it up right away. Am I supposed to let the RTV "cure" or whatever before starting the engine? Can you tell that I'm struggling for a solution? It's been three weeks now and it's killing me. If you have any ideas, I'm all ears. Thank you in advance. I appreciate the seriousness and expertise of this list. Don+ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Don Pendergraft" wrote:

> socket for my torque wrench. I thought I would try again. I cleaned the > surfaces and applied a very thin layer of RTV on the engine portion and ALSO > on the rubber gasket itself. I let it setup for about 10 minutes and

RTV will leak in this application (really? duh!). Rubber gaskets do not need anything to keep them from leaking.

> should try. For example, should I try it WITHOUT RTV? Some go without, but > if it's leaking, you would think you would need it. I have had one other

RTV is not the be-all and end-all of sealants.

> Having said that, it does seem that a bit more pressure may stop the leak.

Not really. The rubber gasket doesn't need much pressure on it to stop leaking.

> My other thought is to put on a thin layer of RTV on the engine side and > bolt the cover on right away and not let it setup. Then when it's bolted on, > let it cure for awhile before starting it. Am I supposed to do that? I have > bolted it on and fired it up right away. Am I supposed to let the RTV "cure" > or whatever before starting the engine?

Uhm, yeah, RTV has to cure, else it'll just vibrate right out. Read the package directions for how long it has to cure. But really, this is an application where you don't need any sealant. Some folks put a little RTV on the bottom of the "moons" (the cut-out dips) since those don't get much pressure, but I don't do that, and I've never had a leak at the "moons". That said, this is a rubber gasket, and it does deteriorate over time. It should probably be replaced every five years or so just like your radiator hoses and other rubber items. (Says guy with 5 year old KLR, looking at his rubber hoses and the PITA it'll be to change them out). Some sealant may be advisable if it's an older gasket. BTW, you say "RTV", but there are multiple types and brands. For my differential covers on my Jeep I use a black high-temperature oil-resistant RTV. The regular white RTV would not be appropriate for that job, it dissolves upon contact with oil or gas. What exact kind of RTV have you been using? -E

Sorry Eric, I replied just to you, so I'm resending this to the whole list. The RTV I'm using now is Permatex Ultra-Gray. Also, it's a 2008 so I think the rubber is fine in the gasket. I have inspected it and also placed the cover on a glass table and it seems good. Someone mentioned warranty, but I don't see how they cover a situation like this. They would probably tell me that since I did the valve job, it's my job to reassemble it correctly. Anyway, I just fired her up and here's the result after my FOURTH attempt. It still leaks oil. So I'm bummed. But it is *much better* than before so I'm hopeful. Before, it would leak copious amounts of oil. A big mess! This time, it didn't leak right away, but then started seeping out from the bottom of the back donut (half moon thingy), then the front donut and the front left side just a bit. I could have just kept wiping it away. It wasn't overwhelming, which is good, but it was too much to ride the bike. I'm not positive what to try different this time except that perhaps I could smear some of that gray goody around the donut area a bit more and perhaps let it setup longer than an hour. Other than that, I'm clueless. I could also try no sealant which I've never tried. But the factory uses it, so I don't think it's wrong to use it. Also, a cold front in moving in and the highs will be in the 40's. Perfect for wrenching on the porch. Honestly, there is NO reason this should be difficult. It's not rocket science. I don't get it. Don+

On Nov 19, 2007 6:50 PM, E.L. Green wrote: > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com , "Don > Pendergraft" wrote: > > socket for my torque wrench. I thought I would try again. I cleaned the > > surfaces and applied a very thin layer of RTV on the engine portion and > ALSO > > on the rubber gasket itself. I let it setup for about 10 minutes and > > RTV will leak in this application (really? duh!). Rubber gaskets do not > need anything to > keep them from leaking. > > > should try. For example, should I try it WITHOUT RTV? Some go without, > but > > if it's leaking, you would think you would need it. I have had one other > > RTV is not the be-all and end-all of sealants. > > > Having said that, it does seem that a bit more pressure may stop the > leak. > > Not really. The rubber gasket doesn't need much pressure on it to stop > leaking. > > > My other thought is to put on a thin layer of RTV on the engine side and > > bolt the cover on right away and not let it setup. Then when it's bolted > on, > > let it cure for awhile before starting it. Am I supposed to do that? I > have > > bolted it on and fired it up right away. Am I supposed to let the RTV > "cure" > > or whatever before starting the engine? > > Uhm, yeah, RTV has to cure, else it'll just vibrate right out. Read the > package directions > for how long it has to cure. But really, this is an application where you > don't need any > sealant. Some folks put a little RTV on the bottom of the "moons" (the > cut-out dips) since > those don't get much pressure, but I don't do that, and I've never had a > leak at the > "moons". > > That said, this is a rubber gasket, and it does deteriorate over time. It > should probably be > replaced every five years or so just like your radiator hoses and other > rubber items. (Says > guy with 5 year old KLR, looking at his rubber hoses and the PITA it'll be > to change them > out). Some sealant may be advisable if it's an older gasket. > > BTW, you say "RTV", but there are multiple types and brands. For my > differential covers on > my Jeep I use a black high-temperature oil-resistant RTV. The regular > white RTV would > not be appropriate for that job, it dissolves upon contact with oil or > gas. What exact kind > of RTV have you been using? > > -E > > > -- All other pursuits pale in comparison to your walk with the Living God. "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]