Wilsons Sandbox

At 12:16 AM +0000 1/11/05, Steve H. wrote:

> What you may >not know is that the manufacturers provide free firmware updates on >the net. Firmware is the operating system that controls the camera's >functions. As problems or improvements come along, firmware updates >are posted for owners to download into their cameras. As you can re >map a car's programme to change engine performance, so can you tweak >a digital camera.... You may not notice a >difference, but why not update,it's free !

Why not? 'Cuz sometimes firmware updates go wrong and render a product useless and most companies will tell you tough shit.. I only update firmware when I NEED to, for instance, if my device requires a firmware update to interface with another new device.. If the device is functioning to my expectations, I won't update. However, I'll download firmware updates and save them for possible use in the future. The same is true for software/OS updates & patches. Mark

> > Why not? 'Cuz sometimes firmware updates go wrong and render a > product useless and most companies will tell you tough shit.. I

only

> update firmware when I NEED to, for instance, if my device

requires a

> firmware update to interface with another new device.. If the

device

> is functioning to my expectations, I won't update. However, I'll > download firmware updates and save them for possible use in the > future. > The same is true for software/OS updates & patches. > > Mark

Then why would you save them if they are just going to make your stuff useless ? My latest camera has people all over the world successfully downloading the firmware. Several people, myself included, had some trouble on the first attempt, but I've never heard of anyone reporting a "fry up". So I'll continue to download 'em as they come up. The instructions are very specific and I guess if you can't read, a screw up is your fault. Steve

Steve H. wrote:

> >>Why not? 'Cuz sometimes firmware updates go wrong and render a >>product useless and most companies will tell you tough shit.. I >>Mark > Then why would you save them if they are just going to make your > stuff useless ? My latest camera has people all over the world > successfully downloading the firmware. Several people, myself > included, had some trouble on the first attempt, but I've never > heard of anyone reporting a "fry up". So I'll continue to > download 'em as they come up. The instructions are very specific and > I guess if you can't read, a screw up is your fault. > Steve >

I side with Mark here Steve. Reading is only 5% of a firmware update on devices. I've had *many* experiences where the flash process dies halfway through, rendering the device unusable. Has nothing to do with technical ability, I'm a server engineer by trade. What it rests on is the gamble that the manufacturer is actually providing solid code for their update software....which is one hell of a gamble. All manner of devices are firmware controlled now and I've seen all matter of them go *poof* during the process. A firmware upgrade is one of the most dreaded upgrades of the age. Depending on the piece of equipment, many times the only correction is to send it back to the factory to be re-flashed. That is almost never a free of charge process. Yes, sometimes, maybe most of the time, they work. However, saying that there is no risk other than operator error is FAR from an accurate assessment, and for the vast majority of non-technical people it is not a straightforward process. Another nifty thing that happens with firmware "upgrades" is the manufacturer removing features or restricting the use of the device that you've already purchased. With a camera it doesn't apply so much, but one to really watch out for are firmware upgrades for media players that are being pushed right now. What is going on is your 'upgrade' contains DRM (digital rights management) software that destroys the functionality of the device as you knew it. Once installed you are now essentially subscribed and fully dependent on buying media or only using media that is deemed appropriate by the manufacturer or the media industry. Sure the fine print mentions something about the installed software, but it NEVER mentions the true implications and most of the time you don't have an old copy of the original firmware available to 'go back' if you wanted to. From many nights dealing with faulty firmware upgrade issues on the job, I'm a firm believer in DON'T FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKE. I've got a firmware upgrade tomorrow night as a matter of fact, on a tiny little item. A disk array that handles all the storage (70TB worth) for 25 production servers. Of course according to the manual it will go perfectly and there is "no risk". Let's hope so. Don't chew people's heads off for offering valid advice.

At 3:00 AM +0000 1/11/05, Steve H. wrote:

>Then why would you save them if they are just going to make your >stuff useless ?

I save them in case they're pulled off the server and superceded, or if the device is discontinued altogether. I save them so if I'm eventually in a situation that requires it, or if it offers remarkable improvements, I'll use it. I didn't state that firmware updates will make your stuff useless, I said that the possibility exists.

>My latest camera has people all over the world >successfully downloading the firmware. Several people, myself >included, had some trouble on the first attempt, but I've never >heard of anyone reporting a "fry up". So I'll continue to >download 'em as they come up.

"Frying" is not always the case. Sometimes in doing a firmware update, you may lose backward compatibility with certain other devices. For example, say you're using Digicam X on System Y. You decide to update the firmware for the same reason a dog licks his balls. Everything works OK. Then you find out that when you're at your Dad's house and you want to load the pix of your weekend fishing trip on his older system Z, you can't do it anymore, and the Digicam manufacturer didn't tell you this sweet morsel when you downloaded the firmware update.

>The instructions are very specific and >I guess if you can't read, a screw up is your fault.

Cute. It's not just a matter of reading instructions, or the example above. A system freeze in the middle of transferring the new firmware can leave you stranded. I know of one example of a firmware update for an OEM internal ATA hard drive that can leave the drive unrecoverable if there's a system crash or power loss during the transfer. Mark

I agree with not patching the firmware on devices that are not intenet connected, such as digital cameras. There is no risk in not taking the firmware update and a (small) risk of taking the update. You need to have valid firmware to load new firmware. So if your firmware update fails you can never load firmware again and you have an expensive doorstop. When it comes to devices like a camera that are not internet connected my rule is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But not patching intenet connected computers is ill-advised. Unpatched computers are the bane of the internet. Compromised computers on the intenet were not compromised by some master computer hacker. They were unpatched computers compromised by a script running against a huge range of internet addresses. If they were properly patched they would not be vulnerable. An unpatched computer is not just the machine owner's problem. The US Department of Defense gets Denial of Service (DOS) attacks mostly from compromised home broadband computers. So does Yahoo and Amazon. So an unpatched computer is a national security problem and an national ecomomic problem. More than 90% of the spam sent today is sent from compromised (mostly home broadband) systems so an unpatched intenet connected computer is a huge part of the spam problem. Compromised computers are also used to distribute illegal software and child pornography so failing to keep an internet connected computer patched contributes to those societal ills as well. Even people who don't care about keeping their own computer protected as a matter of good hygiene should keep their computer protected as act of good citizenship. When it comes to home internet connected computers my rule is "if it is not patched it should not be connected". If you are using a later Windows box you can set it up to autopatch without any human involvement. If you are running a Linux box you can patch it regularly. Sorry for the diatribe but I do conmputer security for a living and its a hot-button issue for me.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tengai Mark Van Horn" To: "Steve H." Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] NKLR Updating Your Digicam...Free ! > > At 12:16 AM +0000 1/11/05, Steve H. wrote: >> What you may >>not know is that the manufacturers provide free firmware updates on >>the net. Firmware is the operating system that controls the camera's >>functions. As problems or improvements come along, firmware updates >>are posted for owners to download into their cameras. As you can re >>map a car's programme to change engine performance, so can you tweak >>a digital camera.... You may not notice a >>difference, but why not update,it's free ! > > Why not? 'Cuz sometimes firmware updates go wrong and render a > product useless and most companies will tell you tough shit.. I only > update firmware when I NEED to, for instance, if my device requires a > firmware update to interface with another new device.. If the device > is functioning to my expectations, I won't update. However, I'll > download firmware updates and save them for possible use in the > future. > The same is true for software/OS updates & patches. > > Mark > > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

I generally leave well enough alone, unless something is broken. However Sony has come out with a new technological break-through that allows your monitor to function like a webcam. The link is below , you might have to cut and paste the entire link, if it is broken. http://www.thestatenislandboys.com/All_ ... ny%2520Pic% 2520Taking.swf Conall --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Tengai Mark Van Horn wrote:

> At 3:00 AM +0000 1/11/05, Steve H. wrote: > >Then why would you save them if they are just going to make your > >stuff useless ? > > I save them in case they're pulled off the server and superceded,

or

> if the device is discontinued altogether. > I save them so if I'm eventually in a situation that requires it,

or

> if it offers remarkable improvements, I'll use it. > I didn't state that firmware updates will make your stuff useless,

I

> said that the possibility exists. > > >My latest camera has people all over the world > >successfully downloading the firmware. Several people, myself > >included, had some trouble on the first attempt, but I've never > >heard of anyone reporting a "fry up". So I'll continue to > >download 'em as they come up. >

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "John Biccum" wrote:

> I agree with not patching the firmware on devices that are not

intenet

> connected, such as digital cameras. There is no risk in not

taking the

> firmware update and a (small) risk of taking the update.

Hi John. Thanks for your thoughts. I don't venture much beyond digicams and homecomputers, and certainly wouldn't challenge your knowledge. I only posted the original suggestion as I thought that many people (like me) are unaware firmware updates are available. I posted a question about updates being dangerous on a camera forum and have met with a kind of "huh ?" response. Many experienced digicam people that have evolved through numerous models immediately download the latest firmware on getting the camera home. As with new model cars, cameras ain't perfect when released and the updates provide an opportunity to address problems as they come up. The biggest risk that I can see would be a camera power outage during transfer, and they recommend charging the battery first. I haven't heard of any catastrophies, even with people new to cameras and computers. I find it hard to believe a company like Nikon or Canon would provide these updates without a massive warning if there was so much risk. I have no experience with other gadgets and understand what you say. Perhaps ignorance is a virtue at times and plunging in without awareness of danger can be rewarding. My camera works better after my latest update...it wasn't bad before and so your point of ain't broke..don't fix it works. Sort of my opinion about the doohickey option. Regards, Steve