Wilsons Sandbox

Tie it off, cut, suck, repeat until out of blood. There are snake bite kits out there, but the internet will give you all you'd ever need info wise. Google: [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF- 8&q=Snake+Bite+First+Aid&btnG=Google+Search] millerized (old school first aid!) --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Parece" wrote:

> Hi, being from the east coast we don't really run into (at least I

don't ) snacks that are a threat. but i'm a little concerned with running into them and what to do before hand to be prepared just in case I get bitten by a snake ( rattle and other harmful snakes ) while in Moab and the southwest.

> Is there medicine that can be bought over the counter while out

there or is there something I have to get prescribed from my doctor?? Should I be concerned at all? or is it a freak thing when somebody gets bitten by a harmful snake?? Even if it is a freak thing I would still want to be prepared!

> Any insight on this subject would be very

appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Gary Parece > 98 concours 101K, 01 VFR 5K > 02 DRZ400E,KLR650 2K > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Parece" wrote:

> Hi, being from the east coast we don't really run into (at least I

don't ) snacks that are a threat. but i'm a little concerned with running into them and what to do before hand to be prepared just in case I get bitten by a snake ( rattle and other harmful snakes ) while in Moab and the southwest.

> Is there medicine that can be bought over the counter while out

there or is there something I have to get prescribed from my doctor?? Should I be concerned at all? or is it a freak thing when somebody gets bitten by a harmful snake?? Even if it is a freak thing I would still want to be prepared!

> Any insight on this subject would be very

appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Gary Parece > 98 concours 101K, 01 VFR 5K > 02 DRZ400E,KLR650 2K > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm no expert, but I do hike in the deserts around southern Nevada three or four tmes per week, two or three hours at a time, and I run into a rattlesnake maybe one hike out of every ten. There's something about the sound of a rattlesnake that always makes me jump, regardless of how many times I've been buzzed. Guess that's a GOOD thing. You can purchase basic snake bite kits, but I think the main thing is to learn how to avoid being bitten and to obtain medical help as soon as you can if you do get bit. I do not believe that antivenin is available outside of hospitals or clinics, but I may be wrong. Maybe someone who knows for sure will post. I always wear thick leather boots with high tops when I hike in the desert. We've got scorpions and some nasty spiders out here also. So it somewhat depends what you're actually doing as to what you are at risk of encountering. For instance, if you're camping, some critters like to crawl into things. If you're climbing in rocks, you have to watch where you put your hands, etc. In terms of poisonous snakes, I have to say that when I lived back east, I was much more concerned about copperheads and water moccasins than I am out here about rattlers. Maybe that was a mistaken belief, since I run into many more rattlesnakes than I ever did poisonous snakes back east. But I found it very easy to step on a copperhead in the fall woods, and, unsportingly, they give you no warning. I was also wary around remote swimming holes, given cottonmounths and snapping turtles. So I guess it's what you get used to. Enjoy you're trip. I bet you're going to love it.

On Thu, 20 May 2004, Gary Parece wrote:

> Hi, being from the east coast we don't really run into (at least I don't > ) snacks that are a threat.

If you go southwards a little on the east coast, you'll find lots of water moccasins. They are evil, EVIL beasties, that will actually run TOWARD you, and their bite will make you at the very least horribly sick, if not kill you in a rather gruesome manner over the course of several days as your flesh literally rots off. Even further south on the east coast you have coral snakes which will kill you almost instantly.

> them and what to do before hand to be prepared just in case I get bitten > by a snake ( rattle and other harmful snakes ) while in Moab and the > southwest.

Our western rattlers, on the other hand, are rarely fatal. First, they're rather shy guys and keep away from infernal vibrating machinery. Secondly, their venom is designed to stun their prey, not kill it (the powerful constricting motion of their gullet is what kills their prey by crushing it), so a bite from a rattler is rarely fatal. It won't kill you, you'll just wish you were dead (according to those who have experienced it).

> Is there medicine that can be bought over the counter

No. The recommended treatment is immediate evacuation to an emergency room where the appropriate antivenim and medications can be applied via IV. Actually, in many cases they never even bother with the antivenim, they treat it symptomatically with anti-inflammatories and etc., because the antivenim has its own issues (can cause you to go into shock especially if you have a previously undetected allergy to horse serum). I've done backcountry hiking in the West, and snakes have always been the least of my worries. I generally encounter one rattler per every five day-long hikes, but for the ones I can't out-wait, generally tossing a couple of rocks in their direction will get them moving and out of my way. According to statistics, up to 40% of rattlesnake bites in the state of Arizona involved large quantities of alcohol. I.e., drunkards doing something stupid with a snake. Most of the rest were the result of similar stupidity, such as getting close to a rattler and trying to catch it or hold it. I'd much rather deal with rattlers than mocs, mocs are just plain evil, while Western rattlers are typical Western hombres, they warn you loudly to leave them alone, they carry an okay-sized stick to enforce it, but really they'd just prefer that you leave them alone and if you do that, they're fine with you. In other words, act sanely, don't mess with the snakes, and you have nothing to worry about. We have some unforgiving country out here in the West, but it's only unforgiving of stupidity and carelessness, not of humanity in general. -E

On Thu, 20 May 2004, James L. Miller Jr. wrote:

> Tie it off, cut, suck, repeat until out of blood. There are snake

*THIS IS NOT CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE*. Please do not encourage people to do all these old school things. Next thing you'll be recommending is using leaches for treating pneumonia, and holding an exorcism to deal with epilepsy? Current recommended procedure: a) Immobilize the subject as much as possible to slow movement of venom. b) Medivac the subject to a hospital as swiftly as possible for treatment with antivenim, anti-inflamatories, or whatever else is appropriate for the given set of symptoms. In many cases no treatment at all is necessary. It was found that the old school cut'n'suck procedure not only didn't work (no effect on the outcome), it actually caused more damage than the snake bite itself in many cases. Western rattlers rarely kill a full grown man even if the bite is completely untreated. (You may WISH you were dead -- they make you sick and cause a lot of pain -- but you won't die unless you already had a bad ticker or other such health problems). http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/995_snakes.html -E

Since you appear to know about this, what's the currently recommended procedure if you're the subject and there's nobody around to medevac you? -Lujo

> *THIS IS NOT CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE*. Please do not encourage > people to do all these old school things. Next thing you'll be > recommending is using leaches for treating pneumonia, and holding an > exorcism to deal with epilepsy? > > Current recommended procedure: a) Immobilize the subject as much as > possible to slow movement of venom. b) Medivac the subject to a hospital > as swiftly as possible for treatment with antivenim, anti-inflamatories, > or whatever else is appropriate for the given set of symptoms. In many > cases no treatment at all is necessary. > > It was found that the old school cut'n'suck procedure not only didn't work > (no effect on the outcome), it actually caused more damage than the snake > bite itself in many cases. Western rattlers rarely kill a full grown man > even if the bite is completely untreated. (You may WISH you were dead -- > they make you sick and cause a lot of pain -- but you won't die unless you > already had a bad ticker or other such health problems). > > http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/995_snakes.html > > -E >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The "til out of blood" should have given you a hint that "that" was a joke. If it wasn't , I'd have just left well enough alone or told them to use the jugular (sp)vein. Some people are just too quick to post, as if it's a race to belittle or out-do someone else. Humor, my friend. If you even slightly knew me, you'd have figured that out in the first sentence. Figure in, tho, most places you're going to get bit are far enough from the general public that anything other than just setting waiting for help are better. If you're alone, other than just waiting, what are your choices? Yeah, cut and bleed aren't the best solutions to this problem, but again, that's why I posted the Google link. The send for help is not always the best option either. Your friend, hopefully trained, most likely not, who now has it in his mind that he is the only link between you and death, isn't going to be on his most careful riding to go get help. He's going to take more chances thinking that he's the one that's going to get you through this. Medivac: If you can get to a phone, if you have cell service, if you have another rider. Hell, some places you might as well send smoke signals. Too many "if's" for me. I would have to have a different set of fixes than the norm. Too many places I ride here in WV have NO cell service. I kinda like it that way. I also ride alone. Again, I kinda like it that way. Of course, with that extra "risk" I have taken precautions to fit MY situation. Relax, read the information, and it'll let you live through most anything. Anyone who doesn't read the whole situation and prepare for that same is doomed to cause more problems than they'll solve. Another Darwin candidate? If that were the case, we'd have less helmeted riders out there. millerized --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric L. Green" wrote:

> On Thu, 20 May 2004, James L. Miller Jr. wrote: > > Tie it off, cut, suck, repeat until out of blood. There are

snake

> > *THIS IS NOT CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE*. Please do not

encourage

> people to do all these old school things. Next thing you'll be > recommending is using leaches for treating pneumonia, and holding

an

> exorcism to deal with epilepsy? > > Current recommended procedure: a) Immobilize the subject as much as > possible to slow movement of venom. b) Medivac the subject to a

hospital

> as swiftly as possible for treatment with antivenim, anti-

inflamatories,

> or whatever else is appropriate for the given set of symptoms. In

many

> cases no treatment at all is necessary. > > It was found that the old school cut'n'suck procedure not only

didn't work

> (no effect on the outcome), it actually caused more damage than the

snake

> bite itself in many cases. Western rattlers rarely kill a full

grown man

> even if the bite is completely untreated. (You may WISH you were

dead --

> they make you sick and cause a lot of pain -- but you won't die

unless you

> already had a bad ticker or other such health problems). > > http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/995_snakes.html > > -E

From what I remember in Boy Scouts, the "suck out the venom" was the recommended treatment if rescue was more than 12 hours away. People have also swallowed venom, and given people extremely nasty infections from bacteria in their mouth (snakebites are often deep puncture wounds). The infections can be worse than the snakebite, especially since you might bet bit somewhere that you can't reach by yourself. Get bit on the ass, you find out who your true friends really are. BUT- if you can apply suction in a SANITARY manner, and clean the wound properly, suction would reduce the venom dose you get. "Sanitary" (or at least good enough) could be pouring Betadine on the wound then using your emergency fuel-siphon hose to avoid mouth contact. Devon lbauer@... wrote:

>Since you appear to know about this, what's the currently recommended >procedure if you're the subject and there's nobody around to medevac you? > >-Lujo > > > >>*THIS IS NOT CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE*. Please do not encourage >>people to do all these old school things. Next thing you'll be >>recommending is using leaches for treating pneumonia, and holding an >>exorcism to deal with epilepsy? >> >>Current recommended procedure: a) Immobilize the subject as much as >>possible to slow movement of venom. b) Medivac the subject to a hospital >>as swiftly as possible for treatment with antivenim, anti-inflamatories, >>or whatever else is appropriate for the given set of symptoms. In many >>cases no treatment at all is necessary. >> >>It was found that the old school cut'n'suck procedure not only didn't work >>(no effect on the outcome), it actually caused more damage than the snake >>bite itself in many cases. Western rattlers rarely kill a full grown man >>even if the bite is completely untreated. (You may WISH you were dead -- >>they make you sick and cause a lot of pain -- but you won't die unless you >>already had a bad ticker or other such health problems). >> >>http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/995_snakes.html >> >>-E >> >> >> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Yeah, Eric's on the money here. I've been in central Arizona for 12 years and rattlers are common, but not really that troublesome. I've carried a snakebite kit for 10 years and never used it. Scorpions, sunburn and the various cacti species are more likely to ruin your day. Most years, we don't have any rattlesnake fatalities; and the bite statistic that I've read is that 85% of snakebite instances involve 18 to 24 year old males and alcohol. The serious risk out here, at least in the 6-month summer, is the heat. That will kill you in a few hours if you let it get away from you. You should know and watch for the symptoms of heat exhaustion and heat stroke. Lots of water is your best friend. I have lots of good vented gear, evap vest, camelbaks, etc. Jett, A15, AZ --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric L. Green" wrote:

> On Thu, 20 May 2004, Gary Parece wrote: > > Hi, being from the east coast we don't really run into (at least

I don't

> > ) snacks that are a threat. > > If you go southwards a little on the east coast, you'll find lots

of water

> moccasins. They are evil, EVIL beasties, that will actually run

TOWARD

On Thu, 20 May 2004, Lujo Bauer wrote:

> Since you appear to know about this, what's the currently recommended > procedure if you're the subject and there's nobody around to medevac you? > > http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/995_snakes.html

Take two Tylenol, take a Benadryl in case you happen to be allergic to some of the proteins in the snake's venom, clean the wounds as best you can to avoid infection, and do what you can do to get to where you can get medevac'ed. It's hard to do when you're panicking because you feel like you're about to die. But generally a rattlesnake bite here in the West won't kill you, you'll merely wish that you're dead. The traditional voodoo treatments made no difference in mortality rates, and often caused problems of their own (e.g. the constriction treatment often caused the need for entire limbs to be amputated, whereas if left alone, all that would have happened would be that a chunk of dead flesh had to be removed once medical treatment was obtained). It won't hurt to use a "snake bite kit" suction device to try to suck poison out of the wound before you clean and bandage it, just note that such devices remove very little of the poison and typically make no difference to the outcome. Of course, avoiding the snakebite in the first place is the best treatment, and that's imminently possible with Western rattlers, who will give you fair warning well in advance to back off. It's pretty darn hard to get bit by a Western rattler if you keep your wits about you and don't do stupid things like play with a snake or stick your hand under a big rock or log where a rattler may be waiting out the day. Sorry, no references here. It's from a wilderness survival guide that I bought and memorized prior to taking my first wilderness backpacking trip (said guide is currently packed in one of approximately 20 boxes of books in a warehouse about 5 miles from here), backed up by information from other sources such as the FDA site above and various newspaper articles regarding snake bites and their treatment in the Arizona Republic, usually sourced from the University of Arizona's herpetology department. Snake bites are dangerous and painful. But they are rarely fatal, and usually quite avoidable. -E