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DSN_KLR650
Chris Krok
Posts: 1166
Joined: Wed May 10, 2000 10:33 am

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by Chris Krok » Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:43 pm

> Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the documented shootings > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two excellent > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for yourself. > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power.
Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down enough for shots 2+? :)
> As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in the illegal > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am aware of > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if the attacker > keeps coming.
Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency" situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros? -- Dr. J. Christopher Krok Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 Big Cee Engineering http://www.bigcee.com

marcclarke@unforgettable.com

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by marcclarke@unforgettable.com » Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:06 pm

----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Krok >To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [DSN_klr650] NKLR stoppies (in the criminal sense) >Date: Monday, October 01, 2001 15:50 > > >> Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the documented shootings >> they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two excellent >> books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for yourself. >> They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power. > >Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down >enough for shots 2+? :)
Yes. Training calls for two fast shots to the upper abdomen followed by a third shot to the head if the attacker has not gone down (i.e., is wearing a bullet-resistant vest). The problem is that the first solid hit wins, and against multiple attackers the defender may not have enough time or ammunition to expend three shots per attacker.
>> As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in the illegal >> drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am aware of >> teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if the attacker >> keeps coming. > >Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police >departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training >they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency" >situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros? >-- >Dr. J. Christopher Krok >Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel >MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
If your thorax query was humorous, sorry, I missed it. Would you prefer I say "abdomen"? Or "upper chest"? Sorry, I should have been more clear. The more advanced pros are trained to aim for the intersection of the vertical line drawn down the spine and a horizontal line drawn between the armpits. This aiming point maximizes the probability of a hit which will immediately stop the attacker. The older style of training teaches aiming for the center of mass. This older style assumes poorer marksmanship and tries simply to maximize the probability of a hit, even if the hit is not a stopping hit. -- Marc, Kawasaki KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA

Chris Krok
Posts: 1166
Joined: Wed May 10, 2000 10:33 am

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by Chris Krok » Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:37 pm

> If your thorax query was humorous, sorry, I missed it. Would you prefer I say "abdomen"? Or "upper chest"? Sorry, I should have been more clear.
No, it was serious. I thought "thorax" referred to the neck. I have looked it up, and it is much more reasonable. El Krokko http://www.bigcee.com

Peter Dahlheimer, MD

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by Peter Dahlheimer, MD » Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:40 pm

i have opened up a couple of thoraces (pleural), but i have no idea what an adaptive wind tunnel is...
> -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Krok [mailto:stingray@...] > Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 4:44 PM > To: marcclarke@... > Cc: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: NKLR stoppies (in the criminal sense) > > > > > If your thorax query was humorous, sorry, I missed it. Would > you prefer I say "abdomen"? Or "upper chest"? Sorry, I should > have been more clear. > > No, it was serious. I thought "thorax" referred to the neck. I have > looked it up, and it is much more reasonable. > > El Krokko > -- > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel > MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > Big Cee Engineering > http://www.bigcee.com > > Checkout Dual Sport News at > http://www.dualsportnews.com > Be part of the Adventure! > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >
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Dale Johnson
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 10:04 am

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by Dale Johnson » Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:49 pm

What about double tapping? Dale
--- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote: > > > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the documented shootings > > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two excellent > > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for yourself. > > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power. > > Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down > enough for shots 2+? :) > > > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in the illegal > > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am aware of > > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if the attacker > > keeps coming. > > Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police > departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training > they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency" > situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros? > > > -- > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel > MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > Big Cee Engineering > http://www.bigcee.com

FGJ
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:36 pm

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by FGJ » Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:00 pm

> What about double tapping? > > Dale >
In theory a double tap is great as the 2nd round puts the blood pressure over the top, but in real gunfights there's so much stress that even experienced cops expend 3 rounds per hit on an assailant and usually they're within 7 yards, essentially on top of each other, it's not uncommon for someone to be jacking rounds into the floor as they're clearing the holster, the wonderful world of adrenaline. I think the only people who actually execute double taps are the SAS and the like.

marcclarke@unforgettable.com

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by marcclarke@unforgettable.com » Mon Oct 01, 2001 7:48 pm

Chris, Phew! I learned the use of the anatomical term "thorax" when I underwent "major thoracic surgery". Most assuredly not in my neck region. Where is Dr. Pete to help us clarify medical terms when we need him? :-) -- Marc, Kawasaki KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA ----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Krok >To: marcclarke@... >Cc: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: NKLR stoppies (in the criminal sense) >Date: Monday, October 01, 2001 16:44 > > >> If your thorax query was humorous, sorry, I missed it. Would you prefer I say "abdomen"? Or "upper chest"? Sorry, I should have been more clear. > >No, it was serious. I thought "thorax" referred to the neck. I have >looked it up, and it is much more reasonable. > >El Krokko >-- >Dr. J. Christopher Krok >Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel >MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125

tismybutt@yahoo.com
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 5:55 am

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by tismybutt@yahoo.com » Tue Oct 02, 2001 6:24 am

The biggest problem with the "professionals"(please, no offense in tended!)Most local law enforcement agencies require an officer to qaulify with thier firearm once, maybe twice a year. That is the most use they see. Some don't practice at all! I'm pretty sure most officers would rather not have to use thier pistol at all. Any one out there with a badge care to comment? I'd be interested to here how much range time one gets.
--- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote: > > > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the documented shootings > > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two excellent > > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for yourself. > > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power. > > Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down > enough for shots 2+? :) > > > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in the illegal > > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am aware of > > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if the attacker > > keeps coming. > > Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police > departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training > they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency" > situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros? > > > -- > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel > MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > Big Cee Engineering > http://www.bigcee.com

Rob Fowler
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:50 pm

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by Rob Fowler » Tue Oct 02, 2001 9:25 am

Any one out there with a badge care to comment? I'd be interested to here how
> much range time one gets.
Twice a year. With maybe 300 rounds total.
> --- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote: > > > > > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the > documented shootings > > > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two > excellent > > > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for > yourself. > > > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power. > > > > Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down > > enough for shots 2+? :) > > > > > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in > the illegal > > > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am > aware of > > > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if > the attacker > > > keeps coming. > > > > Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police > > departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training > > they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency" > > situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros? > > > > > > -- > > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > > Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel > > MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > > Big Cee Engineering > > http://www.bigcee.com > > > Checkout Dual Sport News at > http://www.dualsportnews.com > Be part of the Adventure! > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

David Critchley
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2000 1:11 pm

nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)

Post by David Critchley » Tue Oct 02, 2001 12:37 pm

As a Federal prison guard in Edmonton Alberta, our standard is that we must qualify once per year with all weapons. Keep in mind that the current Canadian govt has an interest in depriving all law-abiding citizens of their firearms , so our official party line is a lot different to most civilized places, unfortunately. David C tismybutt@... wrote:
> The biggest problem with the "professionals"(please, no offense in > tended!)Most local law enforcement agencies require an officer to > qaulify with thier firearm once, maybe twice a year. That is the most > use they see. Some don't practice at all! I'm pretty sure most > officers would rather not have to use thier pistol at all. Any one > out there with a badge care to comment? I'd be interested to here how > much range time one gets. > > --- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote: > > > > > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the > documented shootings > > > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two > excellent > > > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for > yourself. > > > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power. > > > > Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down > > enough for shots 2+? :) > > > > > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in > the illegal > > > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am > aware of > > > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if > the attacker > > > keeps coming. > > > > Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police > > departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training > > they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency" > > situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros? > > > > > > -- > > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > > Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel > > MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > > Big Cee Engineering > > http://www.bigcee.com > > Checkout Dual Sport News at > http://www.dualsportnews.com > Be part of the Adventure! > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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