Wilsons Sandbox

Skip, Since you started this "Laying it Down" discussion, would you be so kind as to describe the proper technique for doing it? Doesn't one also run the risk of being crushed between the bike and the object being avoided should you spin around with the bike before bike/rider separation? Thanks for bringing this topic up. ScottB

>From: "Skip Faulkner" >To: "'KLR List'" DSN_klr650@egroups.com> >Subject: [DSN_klr650] NKLR Laying it down >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:59:29 -0600 > > I heard about an accident that happened yesterday where I live that >relates to something Gino, Mike, Fred and I, plus some others were >speculating about while standing in front of a pristine little lake above >Moab. > It was about intentionally laying a bike down in a situation where it >looked like that was the only way to go. We were questioning how realistic >that was. Could you really do it. You would have no time to think, just >react. You would almost have had to be planning it or thinking about in >your >mind regularly, because it would almost have to be an instinctive thing, no >hesitation. Most of the views were it would be almost impossible to do in a >high speed, quick wrong move thing. > Well, the accident that happened yesterday involved a Harley, Goldwing >and a truck. >The two bikes were traveling at about 50mph, going out of town on a four >lane road. >A truck turned left in front of both of them >( they were abreast of each other, using both lanes). The Harley guy laid >his bike down, just in time to catch the rear wheel of the truck. He came >out ok, bruised and a little road rash. >The Goldwing t-boned the truck and was seriously injured. I know one of the >witnesses and he said that the truck was so close when it turned, the >Harley >guy had to have been anticipating it, because he immediately laid the bike >down, on purpose. > For what it`s worth, the driver, of course, says he didn`t see the >bikes. They both had lights on, bright sunny day, both riders dark dressed, >dark bikes, with traffic behind them. > >Skip > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup >Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files. >Install today: >http://click.egroups.com/1/5667/6/_/911801/_/962337712/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Visit the KLR650 archives at >http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 >Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... >Let's keep this list SPAM free! > >Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com > >

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> Skip, > Since you started this "Laying it Down" discussion, would you be so kind

as

> to describe the proper technique for doing it? Doesn't one also run the > risk of being crushed between the bike and the object being avoided should > you spin around with the bike before bike/rider separation? > Thanks for bringing this topic up. > ScottB

Scott, The main reason I posted that was due to our discussion at Moab and then the related accident. I have been questioning this maneuver for many years. As a matter of fact, I`ll admit to what may seem a little whacko to most of you, but those of similar mental instability can relate. Many, many, many years ago, long before I reached my current mental maturity and wisdom, I was so intrigued about intentionally laying a bike down, I decided to try it. I had a Yamaha DT175 that had served me well but was on it`s last legs and was ready to be put down. One Sunday evening ( after chores of course), I donned long underwear, flannel shirt, Filson shirt, two pairs of jeans, football knee pads, forearm pads, elbow pads, Carhart coveralls and my football shoulder pads, and with much effort involved trying to climb on the bike, headed out for the school parking lot. Movement was of course very limited. Having the moves I was sure were right, in my mind, reaching the wet parking lot, I was ready. To make it short, my first attempt at 20mph I chickened out at the last minute and only accomplished a slow high-side, which shook me up pretty good. My second determined effort payed off, I guess. At my last glance at the speedo, I was doing about 25mph. I was using a parking stripe as my "obstacle". I locked up the rear ( which was a feat in itself), hard left counter steer,( a little tricky with a bent handle bar from the first attempt) hard right body english, and whoosh! The thing that surprised me was that I didn`t slap the pavement as I had thought I would. The rear slid around, at the same time it just laid down. I`m sure if I had been going faster, I would have hit harder. My left leg took most of it, my upper arm came in a close second. When I hit, my helmet slapped the pavement pretty good, but left no lasting impressions. The bike and I slid fairly square, leaving some of my Carharts and plastic from my shoulder pads on the wet asphalt. I was a little bruised, but not bad. I still don`t know if I could do it in a real situation. When I come up on intersecting roads and such, I`m always planning ahead, but with several close calls, I haven`t yet been in a situation to where laying it down was an option. And yes, it`s very possible to spin around and place yourself between the bike and obstacle. I have no idea on how you could control the slide, in real life. Others could theorize all they want, but until I see it done, I have a hard time believing it`s very controllable. I guess I won`t know till I decide to do it, for real. Skip

> I might be late on the subject, but it seems to me, most people talk of > getting in an accident and say they "laid the bike down". I'd bet a

dollar

> to a doughnut that they didn't actually perform a lay-down slide, but

rather

> they effed up, and instead of admitting to dropping the bike accidentally

or

> due to not controlling it, make a claim to doing something they cannot do

to

> escape embarrassment. > > Chris Astier

I agree, as a rule. But there are some exceptions. The guy I talked to and had witnessed the accident I`m talking about is an experienced motorcyclist and said there was no doubt that the guy laid it down on purpose. Skip

> And yes, it`s very possible to spin around and place yourself

between

> the bike and obstacle. I have no idea on how you could control the slide,

in

> real life. Others could theorize all they want, but until I see it done, I > have a hard time believing it`s very controllable. > I guess I won`t know till I decide to do it, for real. >

There's Hollywood stuntmen that do it all the time. I reckon you could practice controlling your body sliding on the pavement by going barefoot skiing out on the lake. Personally, I'll hold off and just keep practicing my emergency counter-steers and panic stops, thankyouverymuch. Barefoot skiing can really hurt. Hey Skip, sounds like you could have made it in Hollywood! Jeff

After reading all of this an interesting thought just popped into my head. Can you just jump off of the bike? Sort of jump off the pegs back and let the bike just take off in front of you and when you land, land like you're sliding into second base. Hmmmm, I just finished my third beer so excuse me if this sounds rediculous. Any comments? -Brian Shepard Philadelphia PA A13 -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey L. Walker To: KLR List; Scott Blakney; Skip Faulkner Sent: 7/1/00 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] NKLR Laying it down

> And yes, it`s very possible to spin around and place yourself

between

> the bike and obstacle. I have no idea on how you could control the

slide, in

> real life. Others could theorize all they want, but until I see it

done, I

> have a hard time believing it`s very controllable. > I guess I won`t know till I decide to do it, for real. >

There's Hollywood stuntmen that do it all the time. I reckon you could practice controlling your body sliding on the pavement by going barefoot skiing out on the lake. Personally, I'll hold off and just keep practicing my emergency counter-steers and panic stops, thankyouverymuch. Barefoot skiing can really hurt. Hey Skip, sounds like you could have made it in Hollywood! Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lonely? Get Firetalk! Free, unlimited calls anywhere in the world. Free voice chat on hundreds of topics. http://click.egroups.com/1/5477/6/_/911801/_/962496460/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... Let's keep this list SPAM free! Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

> I might be late on the subject, but it seems to me, most people talk of

getting

> in an accident and say they "laid the bike down". I'd bet a dollar to a > doughnut that they didn't actually perform a lay-down slide, but rather

they

> effed up, and instead of admitting to dropping the bike accidentally or

due to

> not controlling it, make a claim to doing something they cannot do to

escape

> embarrassment. > Chris Astier > > Chris, > I'll see your doughnut (are you a cop by the way?), and raise you a bagel

and a

> big Mac with cheese. Undoubtedly some people have lost control of the

bike and

> claimed to have done it on purpose, but, rest assured, laying it down is a > viable technique and there are riders, myself included, who have pulled it

off

> successfully. I would much rather lay down and slide and go into the

obstacle

> feet first than t-bone something and take my chances going over the top

head

> first. What if I don't like what I see on the other side? It's a little

too

> late at that point to say "damn, I wish I'd listened to those guys who'd

said

> it could be done." > It is, as I said in my first post, an option and - usually - the 3rd on my

list

> of things to do. I also must reiterate, it has to be practiced.

OK, I'm going to jump into the discussion. First off, how do you practice this? Hey, at the Army Scuba school, we practiced getting nearly drowned. Not a pleasant experience, and practicing laying down my bike isn't something I would relish, as I have done it unintentionally several times in the dirt, and once on the street after hitting ice. Anyway...... Here's where I'd see preferring laying a bike down over attempting to apply max brakes and counter-steering: If I was riding such a monstrously heavy bike as a Valkarie or a HD. Momomentum is a fact of life (Mass times Velocity yeah?) It takes force to change the motion of a motorcycle. Point is, I find the KLR to be very agile and maneuverable on the street, (but not as agile and quick-stopping as other bikes I've owned and ridden). But, I'll take my chances on a panic stop and a counter-steer maneuver on the KLR. This has already saved my life two years ago, when a delivery van with no brake lights came to a complete stop in the fast lane on I-5, and I only had just enough space to maneuver and stop to the left of it, threading the needle litterly in-between the van and the concrete barrier, stopping even with the cab of the van. No harm, no foul. (Except my language directed at the driver of the van of course.) If I had laid it down, I would have slid under that van and gotten hurt. Now if I was riding a heavier bike (mass times velocity, it just wants to keep going straight, even after being laid down), I wouldn't have had the space to maneuver, and laying down probably would have saved my life in the impending collision with the back of that van. I say that the KLR is a great bike on the street, and you need to really practice the counter-steer and full on panic stop (together). Learn exactly what your limits are on the bike. The only time on the KLR I could see it not responding fast enough to the counter-steer is if you had it loaded down massively with touring gear. Like I said before, the best method I've found for practicing this is to do counter-steer and panic stop drills in an empty parking lot that has those concrete dividers. If you miss-judge, you won't get hurt bumping over one of those. Also, dirt riding really does sharpen your street response time. Shoot guys, we're telling ghost stories and scaring the newbies. Just get out and ride! Jeff

Great topic of discussion. The reason you have to lay it down in the first place is probably because of some crazy driver. In my many years of driving I can say that there seems to be more crazy drivers today than ever before. In my area it's pretty damn bad and I'm just about fed up with this insanity. This part of the country is really bad. Tail-gating is the norm here. I have never seen so many STUPID people who have no concept of basic physics and common sense. It boggles the mind. Not to mention people talking on their cell phones, applying make-up, and reading. It seems that more people behind the wheel are doing just about everything you can think of except driving. Well, I'm writing my Congressman about it because its OUT OF CONTROL! I would suggest a public service ad campaign to make people aware of just how serious the problem is. A media blitz if you will; TV, Radio, Newspaper. The number of people killed on America's highways is an extremely serious national problem that nobody seems to be aware of or care much about. -Brian Shepard Philadelphia PA A13 -----Original Message----- From: Skip Faulkner To: KLR List; bmgecko Sent: 7/2/00 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] NKLR Laying it down

> I might be late on the subject, but it seems to me, most people talk

of

> getting in an accident and say they "laid the bike down". I'd bet a

dollar

> to a doughnut that they didn't actually perform a lay-down slide, but

rather

> they effed up, and instead of admitting to dropping the bike

accidentally or

> due to not controlling it, make a claim to doing something they cannot

do to

> escape embarrassment. > > Chris Astier

I agree, as a rule. But there are some exceptions. The guy I talked to and had witnessed the accident I`m talking about is an experienced motorcyclist and said there was no doubt that the guy laid it down on purpose. Skip ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere! Visit Firetalk.com - click below. http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/6/_/911801/_/962494027/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... Let's keep this list SPAM free! Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

Actually, I do know OF the technique called the "lay-down slide", as I saw it in a Motorcycle Safety Course class syllabus. I chose to take it then (1991?) as a real thing. I remember making mention of it to my mother, who would ask once in awhile if I had performed the maneuver, in jest! I figure this is a viable technique, if only it is learned correctly, by qualified technicians. Sorry, Nick... Ya ain't collecting! Chris (I did use appropriate terminology!) Astier Not a cop, but only 240 days left in the military!

----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Hughes" To: DSN_klr650@egroups.com> Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 1:04 AM Subject: [DSN_klr650] nklr laying it down > Chris, > I'll see your doughnut (are you a cop by the way?), and raise you a bagel and a > big Mac with cheese. Undoubtedly some people have lost control of the bike and > claimed to have done it on purpose, but, rest assured, laying it down is a > viable technique and there are riders, myself included, who have pulled it off > successfully.

Rex Hefferan wrote: [...]

> In my experience, most times the bike tends to lead you in the > slide > and you get separated from the bike with the fall.

Just what we want. Get the hell away from the bike before it flips onto you or splits a tank or something.

> I've noticed many > times that road racers will maintain grip on the handlebars and that > can improve the outcome.

I think that is surprise and luck more than anything else. If you hang one while the bike is sliding then you stand more risk of grinding off the back of your hand or putting a broken lever into your fingers. As well, hanging onto the bars could end up with you being dragged along head first, which apparently a deliberate slide is supposed to avoid. Very generally, the friction of whatever you are wearing (or not wearing) may well slow you faster than the sliding bike would. [...]

> Another > thing is you may lose control of the sliding bike and it can make > matters worse.

I don't know about you guys, but once the bike is on its side, I don't have much control over where it goes. Laying a bike down may have been a generally more applicable technique way back when bikes had lousy frames, tyres and brakes (yes, some bikes had brakes worse than a single-piston KLR caliper). Mister_T