biker scout rip-off? nklr

[Jeff Saline]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 22:16:25 -0500 Mike Frey writes:

> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Saline > To: sh8knj8k@... > Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:06 PM > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: When to switch to synthetic > > I'll tell you the KLR oil analysis I've done indicates the oil > does get > sheared rather quickly. > > Jeff Saline > > --- long winded reply ---- > > To Jeff: > > Since you are one of the few who I know of that has tested the oil > from the KLR, do you have any test results from cars? If so, how > does it compare? > > To All: > > Although I pay attention to all oil related threads, both here and > elsewhere, I remain skeptical to this day that each oil is so > different that if used in another application, disaster is imminent. > But, I am open minded (I even use Amsoil in one of my cars) > > In all my bikes, I use Mobil 1, automotive grade, the same stuff > that people have guaranteed would shorten the life of my KLR. > However, I will probably switch to Rotella (equally dissed). I > change oil every 2,000 miles or twice a year, whichever comes > first. > > Never had a clutch slippage issue. The only clutches I ever wore > out were in 2-stroke bikes, so that's not a good comparison. > > I've been a Mobil 1 user for as long as I can remember and never > wore out an engine. Oops, I take that back. My Dodge Stealth Twin > Turbo threw a rod bearing at 160,000 miles (everything else was > original). I was not the first owner and it was obvious that whoever > had it first ran it hard for the first 60,000 miles. > > *IF* the low friction auto grade oils are so bad for bikes, what > would happen if a JASO oil was used in a car? > > How about Rotella T in a car? Would I just lose a couple MPG? > > Mike

<><><><><><><> <><><><><><><> Mike, The short answer is I don't have any oil analysis data from cars. : ) Just so I don't forget to answer I don't use an oil for fuel economy. I use it cause I think it's a good lubricant for the application. If I get better fuel economy too that's an added bonus. But I think for motorcycles cost savings in this area are kind of a joke as motorcycles aren't a cost saving transportation. But they are way more fun most of the time than other modes of transportation. : ) I'm only doing the oil analysis because about two years ago when I started there was an interest about the result on this list. Blake had done a few oil analysis samples but getting samples from only one bike takes a bit of time. I've got enough spare cash I figured this would be an interesting project but not one with economical merit. : ) It does cost about $14 per analysis. At that rate I'd be better off changing oil every 1,000 miles instead of doing the oil analysis. But Blake has seen all my oil analysis results, usually within 15-30 minutes of when I get them. He can probably tell you more about oil in the KLR oil compartment than anyone else I've heard from on this list. A little back ground on me you may find of interest. I was in the vehicle maintenance field for the US military for just over 25 years. For those that care I was Army for 3 years 11 months and 29 days (but I didn't count) and the rest of my service was in the Air Force. Around 1995-1998 I was involved with an oil analysis program encompassing about 14,000 vehicles belonging to the Pacific Air Forces. At first I was at ground level making sure the program was implemented on the fleet I was responsible for maintaining which was a bit less than 500 vehicles if I recall correctly. We did oil analysis on site for all the vehicles. That meant a sample a minimum of every 90 days and on high use vehicles it could mean as often as maybe every month. We only changed oil if the oil analysis indicated a change was needed. This was a very labor intensive program costing me about 1 1/2 bodies with no reimbursement. After about the first year I was moved to headquarters and sat next to the guy that ran the program for the entire command. Although I saw the results I didn't directly work on the program as I had my own programs. Bill, the guy in charge of oil A, and I were in daily and sometimes hourly contact discussing results and speculating on reasons for the results we saw. As far as I know this was a very clean program with absolutely no underhanded manipulation of data. We just wanted the facts and to use them as best we could. We saw some eye opening data and he could also tell pretty accurately when someone was just punching numbers in the data instead of gathering the data honestly. During the time I had an oil analysis guy working directly for me I wanted to see some results for myself on vehicles with history I personally knew. So on two oil changes on my personal vehicles I took samples and had them analyzed. At the time one was a Subaru Loyale Wagon with a 4 cylinder engine with about 30,000 miles on it. The other was a truck I still have. It's a 1986 Nissan 4X4 King Cab Pick Up with a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder engine. This truck had about 125,000 miles on it. I've owned it since new. On both vehicles I was doing oil and filter changes at 3,000 miles. My oil A guy brought me the results on both samples. They were identical. No need to change the oil. Lots of life left in it. I never analyzed the oil in them again. Oh, that was Castrol 20w/50 GTX dino oil. Oh, and I also didn't change my oil change interval. The 3,000 mile interval was what I grew up with and it was working for me. : ) We also worked with by-pass oil filtration systems and installed about 500 by-pass filters on the 14,000 vehicle fleet. A by-pass filter only works well in certain applications. Some over the road trucks use them as they filter a small amount of oil each hour but filter it to a very high degree. Filters are usually measured in microns. A Micron is one millionth of a meter. A meter is about 39 inches. You can do the math. After handling a multitude of by-pass filters, seeing the results of oil analysis on each of them and also talking to manufacturers and reps I figured I knew enough to be dangerous. I ended up putting one on my truck. I wanted one that was effective, easy to install and filters that were inexpensive and easy to change. I made my selection and installed it. Installation took a couple of hours and cost I think was maybe $125 or something like that. I got a discount since I was Air Force and the owner of the company was former Air Force. He gave that discount to every Air Force member and maybe all military members that bought from his company. The filter at the time cost me $0.54 and I had to change it every 2,000 miles and add about a liter of make up oil. Make up oil is whatever you're using by just topping off the system and replenishing additives. I think at 15,000 miles I finally changed the oil just because it felt really weird to not do oil changes and I no longer had access to easy oil analysis if I had wanted to check the oil. I still use that by-pass filter and I think I changed the oil again a few years ago. Nope, I think I changed the filter a few years ago. That truck sits most of the time now and is only used to move junk and pick up material for the shop etc. The purpose of the Oil A program was never aimed at reducing maintenance costs but was billed as an environmental program. Less oil changes meant less oil to dispose of or purchase. There have been a few federal mandates that require agencies to do stuff like this even though they cost more than they save. One other program I was involved with a year or so before the oil A program was bi-fueled vehicles at a base level. I understand that base converted about 100 vehicles to bi-fuel use which met the federal mandate. I also have been told they were never used in the bi-fuel mode as there was no place to economically fuel the vehicles. Range was so short that by the time you drove to the fuel point and returned you'd have to return to fuel point to refuel again. Man was that an expensive goat rope. This oil analysis program was thought of and sold to the command leadership by a guy with about 20 years in service and he worked it for three years solid. By the time he got done it was accepted by the Air Force for service wide use at the discretion of each command. When I retired in 2001 most commands still hadn't adopted it as it takes a lot of work to make a program like that work. I always felt lucky to work at that headquarters with the guys that were making things happen. I learned a lot from the recognized, very best in that business. Well, that's my story about my experience with oil analysis. Let the record show that, as the best I remember, in most internal combustion engines, spark ignition or compression ignition, we change(d) the oil sooner than needed. But, remember the KLR650 oil compartment is more than just an internal combustion engine crankcase. It also has a transmission and wet multi-disc clutch requiring lubrication. That is a really tough oil compartment since each component requires a different lubricant to best get the job done. We, as KLR650 riders, ask one lubricant to do one heck of a job it's not designed to do. Now I won't tell you that if you do 3,000 mile oil changes you are shortening the life of your engine. Same as I won't tell you if you don't install a 195 degree thermostat you are shortening the life of your engine. But I will tell you changing the oil sooner (like 1,750 or 2,000 miles) or installing a higher temperature thermostat won't hurt your engine life at all and will probably, in my estimation, be good for your KLR650 engine. We all know there are plenty of KLR650s moving about with stock coolant systems and a multitude of oils inside and oil change intervals. And they also have high miles and work just fine as far as we know. Maybe in ten more years we'll have a better data base to use to make some reasonable conclusions. In my KLR650 I'm running a 195 stat and Rotella 15w/40 dino oil with oil analysis to help determine the best oil change interval for my riding and my KLR. I do that because that makes me comfortable. In my Jeep with 140,000 miles I've been running Valvoline 10w/30 year round with a 5,000 mile oil change interval. Again, that's what makes me comfortable. And so far it's been working well for me. As of 2008 I'm starting to use Rotella 15w/40 in my airhead BMWs. It calls for 20w/50 but I think the Rotella will be better for me and my riding. The airhead engine oil compartment is just an internal combustion engine crankcase like most cars. I might decide to do oil A on my airheads just for grins. Hopefully everyone will figure out what's best for them and their ride. Sorry about the book. That sure got out of hand. : ) Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT