dogone dogbone

[Michael Martin]

Don, It's been a while since I had the valve cover off my bike. Looking at the valve adjustment photos on MarkNet site, it strikes me that the sealing surface is some distance above the head surface, excepting for where the four donut areas. I don't recall what path the oil takes to return from the camshaft area back down to the sump. If there are drain holes in the surface of the head, it's possible that some excess of silicone sealant has plugged these holes. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY --- "Fr. Don" wrote:

> Anyway, I just fired her up and here's the result after my FOURTH attempt. > It still leaks oil. So I'm bummed. But it is *much better* than before so > I'm hopeful. Before, it would leak copious amounts of oil. A big mess! This > time, it didn't leak right away, but then started seeping out from the > bottom of the back donut (half moon thingy), then the front donut and the > front left side just a bit. I could have just kept wiping it away. It wasn't > overwhelming, which is good, but it was too much to ride the bike. >

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[Fr. Don]

Thanks for the tip Mike! I don't think I got any sealant in there, but when I next take it off I will check again. Don+

On Nov 19, 2007 9:27 PM, Michael Martin wrote: > Don, > > It's been a while since I had the valve cover off my bike. Looking at the > valve adjustment photos on MarkNet site, it strikes me that the sealing > surface > is some distance above the head surface, excepting for where the four > donut > areas. I don't recall what path the oil takes to return from the camshaft > area > back down to the sump. If there are drain holes in the surface of the > head, > it's possible that some excess of silicone sealant has plugged these > holes. > > Mike Martin, > Louisville, KY > > --- "Fr. Don" wrote: > > > > Anyway, I just fired her up and here's the result after my FOURTH > attempt. > > It still leaks oil. So I'm bummed. But it is *much better* than before > so > > I'm hopeful. Before, it would leak copious amounts of oil. A big mess! > This > > time, it didn't leak right away, but then started seeping out from the > > bottom of the back donut (half moon thingy), then the front donut and > the > > front left side just a bit. I could have just kept wiping it away. It > wasn't > > overwhelming, which is good, but it was too much to ride the bike. > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ > -- All other pursuits pale in comparison to your walk with the Living God. "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

Don+, Just a thought on something you might try next time you have the cover off. Take some paper strips maybe 1/2" to 1" wide and a couple of inches long. Clean the sealing surfaces and gasket and then put stripes of paper around various points between the gasket and head. Have the paper sticking out so only the narrow part is sandwiched between the gasket and head and so there is enough sticking out so you can later pull on it. Gently tight the cover bolts. Then gently pull on each strip of paper to see if it has the same resistance to move as the other. If you have a spot not sealing the non sealing area should release the paper quite easily. Once you find a non sealing area you then know where to examine it for problems. Don't forget to open the engine and remove all traces of paper. : ) Seems like you've got a real issue here with no easy fix. Maybe you could see if the dealer will order you a new gasket under warranty and see if that stops the leak. I've had to replace a gasket before but never on a bike as new as yours. I've also used Hylomar PDF to stop leaks similar to what you've described. The problem with Hylomar is it's very hard if not impossible to find in the past two years or so. What was good about it is it seals well, doesn't harden and won't clog oil passages. It was also pretty expensive for the amount you got. One last minute thought if you continue to have issues. Clean the area very well and put the cover on and tighten the bolts. Then spray some foot powder on the area. Run the engine and watch for the oil to discolor the foot powder. You have to keep checking so you catch it when it first leaks other wise it will just spread showing the oil movement. Once you know exactly where it's leaking you can again try to focus on the area. Hang in there and keep us informed. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Don" wrote:

> > Sorry Eric, I replied just to you, so I'm resending this to the

whole list.

> > > The RTV I'm using now is Permatex Ultra-Gray. Also, it's a 2008 so I

think

> the rubber is fine in the gasket.

If it's a 2008 you need no RTV. Clean the gasket with your favorite solvent (brake cleaner is a good one), clean the mating surfaces with similar solvent, put together dry, you'll be fine. My 2002 KLR has never had any RTV on its valve cover as long as I've owned it, and the service manual does not recommend any. If there are any leaks they are not significant, over the course of a 2,000 mile oil change interval I add maybe a half-cup of oil total. If you insist upon a sealant, Permatex does not recommend their Ultra-Gray for valve covers. They recommend their #2 gasket sealant for valve covers. This is a tar-like non-hardening substance that does not dissolve in oil. In my experience it's best for sticking paper gaskets to one side of an assembly about to be put together, rather than as something with significant sealing properties of its own. I'm not sure about its usage with rubber gaskets. I've never done that. Never had to. Never had a rubber gasket that leaked, other than one that was old and at the end of its service life. #2 is old-skool, I was using it thirty years ago on Ford small-block V8's, but sometimes old-skool does work. If you absolutely insist, you can use this stuff to stick the gasket to the valve cover, and put a teensy bit at the bottom of the "moons". But really, you should not need *anything* on a 2008. Why in the world did you use RTV anyhow, given that the factory service manual does not mention a need for any kind of sealant for the valve cover? Or did they change the factory service manual's recommendation for the 2008?

[Greg May]

Hi Don...probably a given but you did remove the rubber cam plugs, the half moon things and seal between them and the head, this is where I've seen them weep oil, not between the flat surface of them and the cam cover...have a great day.....Greg "Fr. Don" wrote: Sorry Eric, I replied just to you, so I'm resending this to the whole list. The RTV I'm using now is Permatex Ultra-Gray. Also, it's a 2008 so I think the rubber is fine in the gasket. I have inspected it and also placed the cover on a glass table and it seems good. Someone mentioned warranty, but I don't see how they cover a situation like this. They would probably tell me that since I did the valve job, it's my job to reassemble it correctly. Anyway, I just fired her up and here's the result after my FOURTH attempt. It still leaks oil. So I'm bummed. But it is *much better* than before so I'm hopeful. Before, it would leak copious amounts of oil. A big mess! This time, it didn't leak right away, but then started seeping out from the bottom of the back donut (half moon thingy), then the front donut and the front left side just a bit. I could have just kept wiping it away. It wasn't overwhelming, which is good, but it was too much to ride the bike. I'm not positive what to try different this time except that perhaps I could smear some of that gray goody around the donut area a bit more and perhaps let it setup longer than an hour. Other than that, I'm clueless. I could also try no sealant which I've never tried. But the factory uses it, so I don't think it's wrong to use it. Also, a cold front in moving in and the highs will be in the 40's. Perfect for wrenching on the porch. Honestly, there is NO reason this should be difficult. It's not rocket science. I don't get it. Don+

On Nov 19, 2007 6:50 PM, E.L. Green wrote: > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com , "Don > Pendergraft" wrote: > > socket for my torque wrench. I thought I would try again. I cleaned the > > surfaces and applied a very thin layer of RTV on the engine portion and > ALSO > > on the rubber gasket itself. I let it setup for about 10 minutes and > > RTV will leak in this application (really? duh!). Rubber gaskets do not > need anything to > keep them from leaking. > > > should try. For example, should I try it WITHOUT RTV? Some go without, > but > > if it's leaking, you would think you would need it. I have had one other > > RTV is not the be-all and end-all of sealants. > > > Having said that, it does seem that a bit more pressure may stop the > leak. > > Not really. The rubber gasket doesn't need much pressure on it to stop > leaking. > > > My other thought is to put on a thin layer of RTV on the engine side and > > bolt the cover on right away and not let it setup. Then when it's bolted > on, > > let it cure for awhile before starting it. Am I supposed to do that? I > have > > bolted it on and fired it up right away. Am I supposed to let the RTV > "cure" > > or whatever before starting the engine? > > Uhm, yeah, RTV has to cure, else it'll just vibrate right out. Read the > package directions > for how long it has to cure. But really, this is an application where you > don't need any > sealant. Some folks put a little RTV on the bottom of the "moons" (the > cut-out dips) since > those don't get much pressure, but I don't do that, and I've never had a > leak at the > "moons". > > That said, this is a rubber gasket, and it does deteriorate over time. It > should probably be > replaced every five years or so just like your radiator hoses and other > rubber items. (Says > guy with 5 year old KLR, looking at his rubber hoses and the PITA it'll be > to change them > out). Some sealant may be advisable if it's an older gasket. > > BTW, you say "RTV", but there are multiple types and brands. For my > differential covers on > my Jeep I use a black high-temperature oil-resistant RTV. The regular > white RTV would > not be appropriate for that job, it dissolves upon contact with oil or > gas. What exact kind > of RTV have you been using? > > -E > > > -- All other pursuits pale in comparison to your walk with the Living God. "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Greg May]

Hi Jeff and Don....., just to add to what Jeff said on the sealent, there is a sealent that would most likely seal your cover but I would use it as sort of a last resort because it is sometime a real pain to disassemble, it's made by Loctite and called the Right Stuff. I believe it's actually a gasket replacement as used but some OEM's on the valve covers and oil pans of new cars. It will seal most anything like that but as I said it is a pain to get apart, but it is readily available and works but use as directed for easiest disassembly when you next need to...Have a great day....Greg Jeff Saline wrote: Don+, Just a thought on something you might try next time you have the cover off. Take some paper strips maybe 1/2" to 1" wide and a couple of inches long. Clean the sealing surfaces and gasket and then put stripes of paper around various points between the gasket and head. Have the paper sticking out so only the narrow part is sandwiched between the gasket and head and so there is enough sticking out so you can later pull on it. Gently tight the cover bolts. Then gently pull on each strip of paper to see if it has the same resistance to move as the other. If you have a spot not sealing the non sealing area should release the paper quite easily. Once you find a non sealing area you then know where to examine it for problems. Don't forget to open the engine and remove all traces of paper. : ) Seems like you've got a real issue here with no easy fix. Maybe you could see if the dealer will order you a new gasket under warranty and see if that stops the leak. I've had to replace a gasket before but never on a bike as new as yours. I've also used Hylomar PDF to stop leaks similar to what you've described. The problem with Hylomar is it's very hard if not impossible to find in the past two years or so. What was good about it is it seals well, doesn't harden and won't clog oil passages. It was also pretty expensive for the amount you got. One last minute thought if you continue to have issues. Clean the area very well and put the cover on and tighten the bolts. Then spray some foot powder on the area. Run the engine and watch for the oil to discolor the foot powder. You have to keep checking so you catch it when it first leaks other wise it will just spread showing the oil movement. Once you know exactly where it's leaking you can again try to focus on the area. Hang in there and keep us informed. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT --------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Pendergraft]

Thanks for the tips Jeff! I will try that. Someone else has also suggested that I assemble with no gasket just to see how the surfaces mate up. Perhaps with a feeler gauge. I don't see why I couldn't do both things. One other thing someone has suggested that I want to check out. I know I have banged around on one of the cam caps before which is where the bolt for the cover goes (I broke a bolt there..don't even get me started). I need to check to make sure there is no raised area or deformity that may be keeping it from cranking down. After all, I'm only putting 55 inch pounds of pressure, and that's not enough to mash down a deformity or bump. It's probably fine, but obviously at this point you want to look at everything. I HATE the idea of giving up and and bringing it to the dealership. Were I to do so, I may as well sell her as I would surely have my KLR membership card revoked and no longer be worthy of KLR ownership. ) Don+ _____ From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Saline Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:58 PM To: dpendergraft@...; DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Leaky Cam Cover - No KLR for 3 weeks and I need your help! Don+, Just a thought on something you might try next time you have the cover off. Take some paper strips maybe 1/2" to 1" wide and a couple of inches long. Clean the sealing surfaces and gasket and then put stripes of paper around various points between the gasket and head. Have the paper sticking out so only the narrow part is sandwiched between the gasket and head and so there is enough sticking out so you can later pull on it. Gently tight the cover bolts. Then gently pull on each strip of paper to see if it has the same resistance to move as the other. If you have a spot not sealing the non sealing area should release the paper quite easily. Once you find a non sealing area you then know where to examine it for problems. Don't forget to open the engine and remove all traces of paper. : ) Seems like you've got a real issue here with no easy fix. Maybe you could see if the dealer will order you a new gasket under warranty and see if that stops the leak. I've had to replace a gasket before but never on a bike as new as yours. I've also used Hylomar PDF to stop leaks similar to what you've described. The problem with Hylomar is it's very hard if not impossible to find in the past two years or so. What was good about it is it seals well, doesn't harden and won't clog oil passages. It was also pretty expensive for the amount you got. One last minute thought if you continue to have issues. Clean the area very well and put the cover on and tighten the bolts. Then spray some foot powder on the area. Run the engine and watch for the oil to discolor the foot powder. You have to keep checking so you catch it when it first leaks other wise it will just spread showing the oil movement. Once you know exactly where it's leaking you can again try to focus on the area. Hang in there and keep us informed. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Don Pendergraft]

I used RTV because I had to scrape off the old stuff. It came that way from Kawasaki. I have heard that some don't use it. My thinking was that since I had a leak, it would be better to use it than not use it. Also, I have to differ about the Permatex Ultra-Gray. They do in fact recommend it for valve covers. At least according to the manufacturers website http://tinyurl.com/lk38b> . The only reason I used it instead of Yamabond is that the dealerships were closed yesterday. Hondabond is like Yamabond, but about $10 more. ) If I thought it would make a difference, I would go buy some today. But using the Ultra-Gray, I have had the most success thusfar. But of course it still weeps oil from the donut thingies. Thanks for all of your input. I appreciate it! Oh, as far as the '08 SM recommendation: I don't recall and am not home to check. But I will certainly check when I get home tonight. Don+ _____ From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of E.L. Green Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 2:37 AM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Leaky Cam Cover - No KLR for 3 weeks and I need your help! --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com, "Fr. Don" wrote:

> > Sorry Eric, I replied just to you, so I'm resending this to the

whole list.

> > > The RTV I'm using now is Permatex Ultra-Gray. Also, it's a 2008 so I

think

> the rubber is fine in the gasket.

If it's a 2008 you need no RTV. Clean the gasket with your favorite solvent (brake cleaner is a good one), clean the mating surfaces with similar solvent, put together dry, you'll be fine. My 2002 KLR has never had any RTV on its valve cover as long as I've owned it, and the service manual does not recommend any. If there are any leaks they are not significant, over the course of a 2,000 mile oil change interval I add maybe a half-cup of oil total. If you insist upon a sealant, Permatex does not recommend their Ultra-Gray for valve covers. They recommend their #2 gasket sealant for valve covers. This is a tar-like non-hardening substance that does not dissolve in oil. In my experience it's best for sticking paper gaskets to one side of an assembly about to be put together, rather than as something with significant sealing properties of its own. I'm not sure about its usage with rubber gaskets. I've never done that. Never had to. Never had a rubber gasket that leaked, other than one that was old and at the end of its service life. #2 is old-skool, I was using it thirty years ago on Ford small-block V8's, but sometimes old-skool does work. If you absolutely insist, you can use this stuff to stick the gasket to the valve cover, and put a teensy bit at the bottom of the "moons". But really, you should not need *anything* on a 2008. Why in the world did you use RTV anyhow, given that the factory service manual does not mention a need for any kind of sealant for the valve cover? Or did they change the factory service manual's recommendation for the 2008? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[pdstreeter@mmm.com]

Don Pendergraft asked about his leaky cam cover. The only bad leak I've had from my cam cover was when I accidentally stacked two seal washers on one of the cam cover bolts and none on another. Sometimes they stay with the cover, other times they come off with the bolts. Verify that you haven't stacked two together. Good luck! Paul Streeter

[Don Pendergraft]

Thanks for the tip! I have checked that. I WISH that were it. Easy fix! Don+ -----Original Message----- From: pdstreeter@... [mailto:pdstreeter@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:39 AM To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com; dpendergraft@... Subject: Re: Leaky Cam Cover - No KLR for 3 weeks and I need your help! Don Pendergraft asked about his leaky cam cover. The only bad leak I've had from my cam cover was when I accidentally stacked two seal washers on one of the cam cover bolts and none on another. Sometimes they stay with the cover, other times they come off with the bolts. Verify that you haven't stacked two together. Good luck! Paul Streeter