nklr dear abby

[Douglas Bouley]

Actually, take a look at cast bullets intended for the .30 Carbine. 110 gr is a normal size. LBT lists one, although they give the nominal weight as 115 gr. I used to load 110 gr round nose lead bullets for an old Krag. Not a 3200 fps though! I question the feasibility of driving a .30 cal lead bullet that fast out of a conventional rifle, even with a gas check. Seems like you'd just get a lead smear down the bore. But I may well be wrong... -doug, disarmed in dc PS old buddy and I used to debate the hoary old 45 cal vs 9 mm thing: "What's better, a slower, heavier bullet or a faster, lighter bullet?" He favored a large, slow 230 gr .lead SWC 45 out of a 7 rd Govt Model. For awhile, I favored a faster/lighter 125 gr JHP 9 mm out of a 20 rd. Steyr GB. I finally decided that heavy/fast was the best answer: 180 gr JHP out of a .44 Mag. If muzzle flash could get 'er done, that's the load! usa1911a1 wrote:

> You are entering my world in ballistics as well. The normal cast lead > bullet used in 30-06 caliber is 190 grains in weight with a diameter of .308 > . There are no 110 grain lead bullets in that caliber to my knowledge. > There is a 110 grain copper spitzer lead point hunting bullet which can > reach 3200 FPS from a 30-06 is you use a good power like Dupont 4895 which > is now out of manufacture. The lead 190 grain bullet is good up to about > 1700 FPS or so. The problem as you push it faster is that it starts to melt > and requires a copper base cap to prevent the powder from melting it from > the rear. Leading also become a problem somewhere between 1800 and 2000 > FPS. > > I understand that the military hyperfast antitank projectile which travels > at something over 5000 FPS actually melts enroute forming a perfect raindrop > shape in flight. This particular shape transmits the absolute most kinetic > energy to the target and causes the inside of the tank to warp and fracture > metal pieces which tend to ricochet around inside. > > > Capt. Bob in Durham, CT. USA > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "D Critchley" > To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR Bird Strikes > > > >> Folks, >> I know a bit about things ballistic, and one interesting fact that I >> managed to find years ago was that if you fire a 110 Gr. cast lead >> bullet from a .30-06 or equivalent at a muzzle velocity of 3200 ft per >> second, it will go through the web of a railway track at a range of >> around 20 ft. Normal ammunition will not do this simply because the >> velocity is not high enough. The BB story sounds right on the money. >> Military hollow charge ammunition comes under a whole different heading, >> for those who may be inclined to mention the M20 rocket launcher and the >> mighty 350 fs mv on it. >> >> DC >> >> Teenage Mark Van Horn wrote: >> >> >>> At 10:53 AM -0800 11/3/06, J. Christopher Krok wrote: >>> >>>>> Posted by: "Chris Norloff" chris01@... >>>>> >>> chrisbviking >>> >>>>> Date: Fri Nov 3, 2006 6:04 am (PST) >>>>> >>>>> Didn't the MythBusters TV show try that? And it turned out it didn't >>>>> >>>> really matter whether the chicken was frozen or not - it's still >>>> > several > >>>> pounds of mass impacting a windshield at high speeds. >>>> >>>> I've heard the frozen chicken story from other sources as well, but >>>> nothing concrete. However, I can attest from personal experience that a >>>> BB fired from a Daisy air rifle will break a beer bottle, but a lead >>>> pellet fired from same will not (at least, the one I had). There could >>>> > be > >>>> some difference in the velocity due to weight differences, but >>>> >>> >>> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> Archive Quicksearch at: >> > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > >> List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com >> List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html >> Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 >> Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

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[fasteddiecopeman]

A good anology for whether or not it matters if the chicken is frozen or not: have you ever done a belly flop from the low boards, then another from the high ones? Water's a LOT harder when you hit faster, isn't it. If you were to hit it at 120 mph (much less the velocity these chickens have...!), it'd be VIRTUALLY SOLID! ... and would more- than-likely kill you. If someone threw a small pebble (say 50 grains - that's 50/7000 of a pound) at you, it'd possibly sting a little. If someone shot a 50 grain bullet at a 1/2" plate of mild steel at 4000 ft per second from a .220 Swift, it'd PENETRATE and leave a hole around 1/2" wide. Velocity is EVERYTHING in this. Ed

[Douglas Bouley]

No argument here re velocity, but it reminds me of a great reductio ad absurdum example I once heard in the handgun cartridge "debate". Take the "slow and heavy" vs "light and fast" discussion to it's (il)logical extreme. Which would you rather get hit by? A laser beam (virtually no mass at highest velocity) or a freight train at 50 mph (low velocity, relatively high mass). I guess my answer would be neither! No, your right: there is no real point to my comment ;-^ fasteddiecopeman wrote:

> A good anology for whether or not it matters if the chicken is frozen or not: > have you ever done a belly flop from the low boards, then another from the high ones? > Water's a LOT harder when you hit faster, isn't it. If you were to hit it at 120 mph (much > less the velocity these chickens have...!), it'd be VIRTUALLY SOLID! ... and would more- > than-likely kill you. > If someone threw a small pebble (say 50 grains - that's 50/7000 of a pound) at you, it'd > possibly sting a little. If someone shot a 50 grain bullet at a 1/2" plate of mild steel at > 4000 ft per second from a .220 Swift, it'd PENETRATE and leave a hole around 1/2" wide. > Velocity is EVERYTHING in this. > Ed > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

[Tengai Mark Van Horn]

At 8:34 PM +0000 11/6/06, fasteddiecopeman wrote:

>A good anology for whether or not it matters if the chicken is frozen or not: >have you ever done a belly flop from the low boards, then another >from the high ones? >Water's a LOT harder when you hit faster, isn't it. If you were to >hit it at 120 mph (much >less the velocity these chickens have...!), it'd be VIRTUALLY SOLID! >... and would more- >than-likely kill you. >If someone threw a small pebble (say 50 grains - that's 50/7000 of a >pound) at you, it'd >possibly sting a little. If someone shot a 50 grain bullet at a 1/2" >plate of mild steel at >4000 ft per second from a .220 Swift, it'd PENETRATE and leave a >hole around 1/2" wide. >Velocity is EVERYTHING in this.

Velocity isn't everything. Impulse is a greater factor, and velocity is just a component of that. Throw a raw egg with your best fastball pitch at a brick wall. Splat. Pitch that egg at a suspended bedsheet. You'll never break it. Mark

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Tengai Mark Van Horn wrote:

> > At 8:34 PM +0000 11/6/06, fasteddiecopeman wrote:

SNIP

> >Velocity is EVERYTHING in this. > > Velocity isn't everything. Impulse is a greater factor, and velocity > is just a component of that. > Throw a raw egg with your best fastball pitch at a brick wall. Splat. > Pitch that egg at a suspended bedsheet. You'll never break it. > > Mark >

I hear all of you, but (I believe) bullet placement is at least as important, or maybe even more important than any of the other discussion of mass vs velocity. I wish I could remember the (long-ago) elephant hunter's name--killed more elephants than any other man for ivory--whose weapon was 6.5mm, Carcanio (sp) if I got it all right in my memory. His placement was to shoot them in the heart with a blunt nose bullet. Neither high velocity, nor high mass; knowledge of elephant anatomy and bullet placement with a rifle that the hunter could easily control. African pigmy's accomplished the same thing with a short-sword/knife by sneaking up on a sleeping elephant and stabbing them in the heart. Mortality rate for the hunter was very high. Those pigmy's that lived were hero's. Who cares how big your gun is, how many bullets it holds, velocity, etc., unless the shooter has good sight alignment and trigger control all you do is convert bullets to noise. revmaaatin. who does not endorse hunting elephants

[Douglas Bouley]

Awright, Rev, Ya got sumpin; aginst noise, Buddy? I suppose yer gonna kvetch about the straight pipes on Hardleys, too, huh? ;-^ OK, you are correct... but terminal ballistics, *plus* magazine capacity, *plus* shot placement will often trump *just* shot placement alone. I bet them little fellas with the single "shot" blades would agree! Also, many of the cops I know who have been in shoot-outs maintain you can't have too many rounds when the chips are down. Unless you are a John "Pondero" Taylor type, few shoot often enough under maximum stress to be able to perform their best when under fire. Fine motor control goes out the window when the adrenalin kicks in. Even David picked up extra stones How 'bout this: Pick the biggest stone you can handle in your individual sling. Sling 'er as hard as you can accurately. Makes sure you've got followup stones. And then leave the rest to God. Oh, and make sure incoming chickens are thawed, but the outgoing ones are frozen solid. BTW, has anyone tried hunting or self-defense with chickens? This is a lot more fun than an oil thread! !! -Doug revmaaatin wrote:

> --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Tengai Mark Van Horn > wrote: > >> At 8:34 PM +0000 11/6/06, fasteddiecopeman wrote: >> > SNIP > > >>> Velocity is EVERYTHING in this. >>> >> Velocity isn't everything. Impulse is a greater factor, and velocity >> is just a component of that. >> Throw a raw egg with your best fastball pitch at a brick wall. Splat. >> Pitch that egg at a suspended bedsheet. You'll never break it. >> >> Mark >> >> > I hear all of you, but (I believe) bullet placement is at least as > important, or maybe even more important than any of the other > discussion of mass vs velocity. I wish I could remember the (long-ago) > elephant hunter's name--killed more elephants than any other man for > ivory--whose weapon was 6.5mm, Carcanio (sp) if I got it all right in > my memory. His placement was to shoot them in the heart with a blunt > nose bullet. Neither high velocity, nor high mass; knowledge of > elephant anatomy and bullet placement with a rifle that the hunter > could easily control. > > African pigmy's accomplished the same thing with a short-sword/knife > by sneaking up on a sleeping elephant and stabbing them in the heart. > Mortality rate for the hunter was very high. Those pigmy's that lived > were hero's. > > Who cares how big your gun is, how many bullets it holds, velocity, > etc., unless the shooter has good sight alignment and trigger control > all you do is convert bullets to noise. > > revmaaatin. who does not endorse hunting elephants > > > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

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[Charles]

> I hear all of you, but (I believe) bullet placement is at least as > important, or maybe even more important than any of the other > discussion of mass vs velocity.

This is absolutely THE most important factor. You can't send a bullet, regardless of the mass, fast enough to kill with a miss. You cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight, nor miss fast enough to kill running, dangerous game, etc.

> I wish I could remember the (long-ago) > elephant hunter's name--killed more elephants than any other man for > ivory--whose weapon was 6.5mm, Carcanio (sp) if I got it all right in > my memory. His placement was to shoot them in the heart with a blunt > nose bullet. Neither high velocity, nor high mass; knowledge of > elephant anatomy and bullet placement with a rifle that the hunter > could easily control.

Don't know the hunter's name either. But, the senario is correct. If you hit with an inferior round, it is still better than a miss with the best round on the planet.

> African pigmy's accomplished the same thing with a short-sword/knife > by sneaking up on a sleeping elephant and stabbing them in the heart. > Mortality rate for the hunter was very high. Those pigmy's that lived > were hero's.

I'd say they were just lucky as heck, and not heros. There is a fine line that separates stupidity from bravery.

> Who cares how big your gun is, how many bullets it holds, velocity, > etc., unless the shooter has good sight alignment and trigger control > all you do is convert bullets to noise.

Sort of like, as I read somewhere, likely on this list, about Harley Davidson cycles; "The most efficient way to convert gasoline to noise without the side effect of horsepower." You can make a bike loud easily, but not fast. And you can make a bullet heavy, and send it very fast, and make it loud; but you can't miss fast enough to make it count. A hit with a .22 short is better than a miss with a cannon round, even on an elephant.

> revmaaatin. who does not endorse hunting elephants

Chuck F. NE PA Who desperately wants to safari specifically to hunt elephants, and does absolutely endorse hunting them.

[Matt Knowles]

On Nov 7, 2006, at 1:36 PM, revmaaatin wrote:

> I hear all of you, but (I believe) bullet placement is at least as > important, or maybe even more important than any of the other > discussion of mass vs velocity.

It certainly is true when you're talking about breaking glass. In my fire turnouts I carry a little spring loaded instrument about the size of a ball point pen. Put it in the corner of a window, snap the point and the whole window will shatter (if it's tempered glass). I've seen new firemen hit windows with an axe and have it bounce off. They're always surprised when you can completely shatter the same window with such little effort when you have the right tool. Now when it comes to front windshields, we usually cut them out with a glass saw because the laminate makes it hard to shatter. Doesn't mean your head won't go through it though if you're not strapped in. Doesn't matter whether your head is frozen or thawed. Matt Knowles - Ferndale, CA - http://www.knowlesville.com/matt/motorcycles '99 Sprint ST - for going fast and far (2CZUSA) '01 KLR650 (A15) - for exploring the North Coast backroads '97 KLX300 & '01 Lakota - for playing in the dirt '79 KZ400 - just because it was the first vehicle I ever owned

[D Critchley]

Two of the famous elephant hunters were Fletcher Jamieson, of Rhodesia, died 1948, and John Taylor, who wrote the book "African Rifles and Cartridges", published in 1948, by Stackpole Publishing at Harrisburg, Penn. How did we get from bird strikes to Elephants , please don't tell me that they have been seen flying around Area 51 in NM. DC Charles wrote:

> > > I hear all of you, but (I believe) bullet placement is at least as > > important, or maybe even more important than any of the other > > discussion of mass vs velocity. > > This is absolutely THE most important factor. You can't send a bullet, > regardless of the mass, fast enough to kill with a miss. You cannot miss > fast enough to win a gunfight, nor miss fast enough to kill running, > dangerous game, etc. > > > I wish I could remember the (long-ago) > > elephant hunter's name--killed more elephants than any other man for > > ivory--whose weapon was 6.5mm, Carcanio (sp) if I got it all right in > > my memor > > >

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[Norm Keller]

>(long-ago) >elephant hunter's name--killed more elephants >than any other man for >ivory--whose weapon was 6.5mm, Carcanio >(sp) if I got it all right in

Walter Bell (known as WDM Bell) is the hunter you refer to. It is also well to recognize that he was a magic rifle shot according to reports by others. He used to like to stand above Victoria Falls and wing shoot cormorants with his 6.5. The Carcano is better known as 6.5 x 52 Mannlicher-Carcano. Norm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]