parts question.........kroil

[mark ward]

Hey for the Engineer (s) out there. for pulling a KLR650 LOADED (camping etc) out of Mud, or across a river, OR UP the muddy slope after the river. (seen on many youtubes ETC) If using Paracord (550lb is average) and 1 pully or 2 pullies, How large diamiter should the pullies be for the average person to pull the bike out, up, across, Etc. (rapping the cord around a stick etc as a handle to save hands) can be used for moving that log across the trail etc also. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Kevin Powers]

Here's the thing Mark. You're likely to get an engineer to give you a detailed answer complete with formulas and mathematical calculations accounting for the weight of a loaded KLR, pressure of tires at various elevations, and the coefficient of friction of kaolonitic mud in burma. I'll give you the non-engineer answer - buy a winch. http://www.cjdesignsllc.com/about-us/brands/1137-2/

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 9:53 AM, mark ward wrote: > ** > > > Hey for the Engineer (s) out there. > > for pulling a KLR650 LOADED (camping etc) out of Mud, or across a river, > OR UP the muddy slope after the river. (seen on many youtubes ETC) > > If using Paracord (550lb is average) and 1 pully or 2 pullies, How large > diamiter should the pullies be for the average person to pull the bike out, > up, across, Etc. > > (rapping the cord around a stick etc as a handle to save hands) > > can be used for moving that log across the trail etc also. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > -- Kevin Powers Woodbury, MN [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:53:02 -0800 (PST) mark ward writes:

> Hey for the Engineer (s) out there. > > for pulling a KLR650 LOADED (camping etc) out of Mud, or across a > river, OR UP the muddy slope after the river. (seen on many youtubes > ETC) > > If using Paracord (550lb is average) and 1 pully or 2 pullies, How > large diamiter should the pullies be for the average person to pull > the bike out, up, across, Etc. > > (rapping the cord around a stick etc as a handle to save hands) > > can be used for moving that log across the trail etc also.

<><><><><> <><><><><> Mark, I'm not an engineer but I'm not gonna let that stop me from making a comment. : ) I don't think it's the diameter of the pulleys that gives you an advantage but the number of wraps??? of cable between two pulleys. That is what gives you the mechanical advantage. If you are pulling 500 pounds with only a single cable connected between the 500 pounds and the pulling force it takes 500 pounds. If you put a pulley on the 500 pound end and attach the cable to a fix object near the pulling force, put the cable around the pulley and then connect it to the pulling force I think that would give you a mechanical advantage of 2 to 1 so the force required would be 250 pounds to move 500. Now if you added a second pulley near the pulling force you could wrap the cable around both pulleys and back to the 500 pound item and get even more mechanical advantage. Maybe you could figure it out by thinking about it in feet moved. Pull the cable one foot and you move the item one foot. Add a pulley and you could pull the cable 2 feet and move the item one foot. Add a second pulley and attach the cable end to the item and you could pull the cable 3 feet and move the item one foot. Secure the cable end at the pulley near the pulling force and you could pull the cable 4 feet and move the item one foot. I think I've got that correct. If not that is the general idea. The factor that really complicates your question is stuck in the mud. How deep, what kind of mud etc. I got my front wheel stuck a few years ago that I couldn't pull the wheel up at all. I had to lay the bike on it's side on a board I found and lever the wheel up and slide the bike out of the mud. I was alone and it took about all I had in me to get free. Took 45 minutes and I sure wish I had a camera with me that day. : ) One more complication is stretch in the 550 cord. I've pulled a 2 1/2 ton truck with 550 cord when I was in the military. It took a lot of wraps to allow that to happen but it was better than a bunch of guys pushing it. And just to keep making a pretty simple operation more complicated... : ) the pulleys have to be stronger enough to carry the load and you have to have a way to fix the pulley(s). Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 . . ____________________________________________________________ Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

[mark ward]

Hey J. I agree with the Block& tackle part, But I would think the size of the pullies 1" 2" 3" would also have an effect, BIGGER EASYER, to a point. And yet small enough to pack in the tool bag, Etc. I carry 100ft. of 550 paracord with me Most the time, and ALWAYS on camping trips, etc. Twice I have had to get a friends cruiser up the SANDY slope off the road he just went over, but both times we were lucky a car/truck stopped and we tied on to them. (wrapping a rag under the car so as not to cut the rope.) I also used it when I bought the 3 Pelican cases, and strapped them to the bike, I LOVE!!! My "Rok" straps but needed the LONG wrapped all over effect to get 3 large pelicans home (120miles) on the KLR. (all other goodies I picked up went INSIDE the cases.) Thin & LIGHT YET STRONG, NICE stuff.

--- On Thu, 1/10/13, Jeff Saline wrote: From: Jeff Saline Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Engineer Question, (non klr, kind of) To: nomad59@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, January 10, 2013, 9:25 PM On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:53:02 -0800 (PST) mark ward writes: > Hey for the Engineer (s) out there. > > for pulling a KLR650 LOADED (camping etc) out of Mud, or across a > river, OR UP the muddy slope after the river. (seen on many youtubes > ETC) > > If using Paracord (550lb is average) and 1 pully or 2 pullies, How > large diamiter should the pullies be for the average person to pull > the bike out, up, across, Etc. > > (rapping the cord around a stick etc as a handle to save hands) > > can be used for moving that log across the trail etc also. <><><><><> <><><><><> Mark, I'm not an engineer but I'm not gonna let that stop me from making a comment. : ) I don't think it's the diameter of the pulleys that gives you an advantage but the number of wraps??? of cable between two pulleys. That is what gives you the mechanical advantage. If you are pulling 500 pounds with only a single cable connected between the 500 pounds and the pulling force it takes 500 pounds. If you put a pulley on the 500 pound end and attach the cable to a fix object near the pulling force, put the cable around the pulley and then connect it to the pulling force I think that would give you a mechanical advantage of 2 to 1 so the force required would be 250 pounds to move 500. Now if you added a second pulley near the pulling force you could wrap the cable around both pulleys and back to the 500 pound item and get even more mechanical advantage. Maybe you could figure it out by thinking about it in feet moved. Pull the cable one foot and you move the item one foot. Add a pulley and you could pull the cable 2 feet and move the item one foot. Add a second pulley and attach the cable end to the item and you could pull the cable 3 feet and move the item one foot. Secure the cable end at the pulley near the pulling force and you could pull the cable 4 feet and move the item one foot. I think I've got that correct. If not that is the general idea. The factor that really complicates your question is stuck in the mud. How deep, what kind of mud etc. I got my front wheel stuck a few years ago that I couldn't pull the wheel up at all. I had to lay the bike on it's side on a board I found and lever the wheel up and slide the bike out of the mud. I was alone and it took about all I had in me to get free. Took 45 minutes and I sure wish I had a camera with me that day. : ) One more complication is stretch in the 550 cord. I've pulled a 2 1/2 ton truck with 550 cord when I was in the military. It took a lot of wraps to allow that to happen but it was better than a bunch of guys pushing it. And just to keep making a pretty simple operation more complicated... : ) the pulleys have to be stronger enough to carry the load and you have to have a way to fix the pulley(s). Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 . . ____________________________________________________________ Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it. http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[achesley43@ymail.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulley Go here. I've used these systems quite often in my career as heavy equipment mechanic and boating in the marshes of SW Louisiana Andy in Jennings

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, mark ward wrote: > > Hey for the Engineer (s) out there.

[RobertWichert]

Well, as an engineer, I'd say "buy a comealong". Robert Wichert ==========================================

On 1/10/2013 8:43 AM, Kevin Powers wrote: > Here's the thing Mark. You're likely to get an engineer to give you a > detailed answer complete with formulas and mathematical calculations > accounting for the weight of a loaded KLR, pressure of tires at various > elevations, and the coefficient of friction of kaolonitic mud in burma. > > I'll give you the non-engineer answer - buy a winch. > http://www.cjdesignsllc.com/about-us/brands/1137-2/ > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 9:53 AM, mark ward wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Hey for the Engineer (s) out there. >> >> for pulling a KLR650 LOADED (camping etc) out of Mud, or across a river, >> OR UP the muddy slope after the river. (seen on many youtubes ETC) >> >> If using Paracord (550lb is average) and 1 pully or 2 pullies, How large >> diamiter should the pullies be for the average person to pull the bike out, >> up, across, Etc. >> >> (rapping the cord around a stick etc as a handle to save hands) >> >> can be used for moving that log across the trail etc also. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > -- Robert P Wichert P.Eng. Inc. LEED AP, HERS II, CEPE +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068

[Mark Harfenist]

It doesn't take an engineer to know that it doesn't matter what size the pulleys are; your mechanical advantage stays the same regardless. I'd suggest using the glacier rescue pulleys sold in mountaineering supply stores--they combine with carabiners for attaching in a variety of ways. Google "crevasse rescue" for system setups, since there are many ways to do this depending on what sort of pull you need to exert and by how many people. You'll want to practice in private at home; it can be tough to figure things out when panicky or injured. You'll also want to think carefully about the forces involved. Parachute cord will break. There's a reason why mountaineers carry rope for such things, even though they weigh less than motorcycles. Dragging a couple of hundred kilos of dead weight uphill using a 6-1 pulley system can easily generate a couple of thousand pounds of pull on a rope. 8 or 9 mm perlon (or lighter weight spectra cord) is the minimum. You don't buy that at your local hardware store. Good luck. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[mark ward]

I have 2 come-alongs, and ass most will not pack very small or light on Long trips ON th4e KLR.

--- On Fri, 1/11/13, RobertWichert wrote: From: RobertWichert Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Engineer Question, (non klr, kind of) To: "Kevin Powers" Cc: "mark ward" , "List KLR" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, January 11, 2013, 12:45 AM Well, as an engineer, I'd say "buy a comealong". Robert Wichert ========================================== On 1/10/2013 8:43 AM, Kevin Powers wrote: > Here's the thing Mark. You're likely to get an engineer to give you a > detailed answer complete with formulas and mathematical calculations > accounting for the weight of a loaded KLR, pressure of tires at various > elevations, and the coefficient of friction of kaolonitic mud in burma. > > I'll give you the non-engineer answer - buy a winch. > http://www.cjdesignsllc.com/about-us/brands/1137-2/ > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 9:53 AM, mark wardnomad59@...> wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Hey for the Engineer (s) out there. >> >> for pulling a KLR650 LOADED (camping etc) out of Mud, or across a river, >> OR UP the muddy slope after the river. (seen on many youtubes ETC) >> >> If using Paracord (550lb is average) and 1 pully or 2 pullies, How large >> diamiter should the pullies be for the average person to pull the bike out, >> up, across, Etc. >> >> (rapping the cord around a stick etc as a handle to save hands) >> >> can be used for moving that log across the trail etc also. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > -- Robert P Wichert P.Eng. Inc. LEED AP, HERS II, CEPE +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[bryanonfire]

Another source of information is to search "river rescue Z drag." Pulling a boat off a rock is probably more like pulling a motorcycle out of a deep ditch than hauling someone out of a crevasse. Solid anchors and good equipment are a must, you'll want some 1" tubular webbing for anchoring to trees or rocks as well as the pullys, rope, and caribiners. One thing a lot of drawings don't show, but it could save you from serious injury: visualize where the rope and pullys will go if any point fails. Some of it could come your way. Tie a jacket or some other large, soft object to that section of the drag system to slow it down as it flies your way. I carry this stuff on most of my whitewater river trips and it's too bulky and heavy to justify carrying it on a solo motorcycle trip, but no worse than a couple of come-alongs and a lot more versatile. Split up among two or three riders it would probably be worth taking if you were going into really rough terrain. For most motorcycle situations 20 - 30 feet of 1" tubular webbing and a lot of grunt work would probablly be a better choice: low bulk, super strong. It will all be useless if you don't know how to tie (and apply) the right knots: prussik and figure 8 at minimum, and possibly self - equalizing anchors depending on your anchor options. Mark is correct, hardware store stuff is not rated and you never know what kind of quality (or lack thereof) you'll get. Plus the rope you get at the local hardware store will stretch way too much, you'll want a static rope for this job. Bryan

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Mark Harfenist wrote: > > It doesn't take an engineer to know that it doesn't matter what size the pulleys are; your mechanical advantage stays the same regardless. I'd suggest using the glacier rescue pulleys sold in mountaineering supply stores--they combine with carabiners for attaching in a variety of ways. > > Google "crevasse rescue" for system setups, since there are many ways to do this depending on what sort of pull you need to exert and by how many people. You'll want to practice in private at home; it can be tough to figure things out when panicky or injured. > > You'll also want to think carefully about the forces involved. Parachute cord will break. There's a reason why mountaineers carry rope for such things, even though they weigh less than motorcycles. Dragging a couple of hundred kilos of dead weight uphill using a 6-1 pulley system can easily generate a couple of thousand pounds of pull on a rope. 8 or 9 mm perlon (or lighter weight spectra cord) is the minimum. You don't buy that at your local hardware store. > > Good luck. > > Mark >

[mark ward]

If a copiie sorry, I lost the 1st try and do not know if it was sent. I have carried a 3/8ths, "ROPE RATCHET" 250lb. (comes in 5sizes 3/16th150lb -1/2" 500lb) (home depot, tractor supplie Etc. 3/8 $13.) Comes with a 8ft 3/8ths rope. but has no limit, 1000 ft etc. Looks like a reg. pulley with a hook. RATCHET, as you pull it clicks (ratchets) and LOCKS IN PLACE, (So OLD guys can rest between pulling.) tieing down loads, use as a compact comealong etc. to hold loads up. What would be nice is a "ROPE PULLER" popular in Canada, and "Tower workers", Works like a come-along, but you yse a rope AS LONG as you want 1000ft? just keep ratcheting. But like a comealong, kind of BULKY for a bike. (Handle etc.)

--- On Fri, 1/11/13, bryanonfire wrote: From: bryanonfire Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Engineer Question, (non klr, kind of) To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 11, 2013, 3:26 PM Another source of information is to search "river rescue Z drag." Pulling a boat off a rock is probably more like pulling a motorcycle out of a deep ditch than hauling someone out of a crevasse. Solid anchors and good equipment are a must, you'll want some 1" tubular webbing for anchoring to trees or rocks as well as the pullys, rope, and caribiners. One thing a lot of drawings don't show, but it could save you from serious injury: visualize where the rope and pullys will go if any point fails. Some of it could come your way. Tie a jacket or some other large, soft object to that section of the drag system to slow it down as it flies your way. I carry this stuff on most of my whitewater river trips and it's too bulky and heavy to justify carrying it on a solo motorcycle trip, but no worse than a couple of come-alongs and a lot more versatile. Split up among two or three riders it would probably be worth taking if you were going into really rough terrain. For most motorcycle situations 20 - 30 feet of 1" tubular webbing and a lot of grunt work would probablly be a better choice: low bulk, super strong. It will all be useless if you don't know how to tie (and apply) the right knots: prussik and figure 8 at minimum, and possibly self - equalizing anchors depending on your anchor options. Mark is correct, hardware store stuff is not rated and you never know what kind of quality (or lack thereof) you'll get. Plus the rope you get at the local hardware store will stretch way too much, you'll want a static rope for this job. Bryan --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Mark Harfenist wrote: > > It doesn't take an engineer to know that it doesn't matter what size the pulleys are; your mechanical advantage stays the same regardless. I'd suggest using the glacier rescue pulleys sold in mountaineering supply stores--they combine with carabiners for attaching in a variety of ways. > > Google "crevasse rescue" for system setups, since there are many ways to do this depending on what sort of pull you need to exert and by how many people. You'll want to practice in private at home; it can be tough to figure things out when panicky or injured. > > You'll also want to think carefully about the forces involved. Parachute cord will break. There's a reason why mountaineers carry rope for such things, even though they weigh less than motorcycles. Dragging a couple of hundred kilos of dead weight uphill using a 6-1 pulley system can easily generate a couple of thousand pounds of pull on a rope. 8 or 9 mm perlon (or lighter weight spectra cord) is the minimum. You don't buy that at your local hardware store. > > Good luck. > > Mark > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]