[dsn_klr650] nklr - obama's healthcare...

[Mark Harfenist]

as suggested we were to come up with a topic that we could all agree on so here is my attempt.....

>>>>name one project or service that the government has done more efficiently

than the private sector. Well....how about building most of our airports, interstate highways, bridges and ports?  Most of which were built using our parents tax dollars at a time when the marginal tax rate was 80% [sic].  Most of which remain in use today, although at current (very low by historical standards or by the standards of other industrialized countries) tax rates we can't even afford the upkeep, much less rebuilding or expanding any of them. These were the investments which made our country an economic, political and military powerhouse.  Other countries (c.f.: China, but also such third rate places as Croatia) are currently making the kinds of investments in infrastructure that we are no longer willing to make.  It's too bad, since I've been kind've enjoying things like highways, bridges, airports and the like. I don't mind paying for them either, since I think I get my fair share of use out of much of what my parents bought for me. Most of y'all sound a bit too eager to make debating points for one side or the other, while simultaneously determined to lock out contrasting points of view or contradictory information.  My mom and sisters live in Canada, and they get far better health care than I do, and for less money (and they don't wait long for non-elective surgery or other procedures, contrary to claims you'll hear here or elsewhere, for whatever that's worth).  What's that mean? My hometown has a giant new multimillion dollar cardiac wing on its hospital, built expressely to attract impatient Canadians as private-pay patients.  Does that make my sisters wrong?  They're all just data points in a very complex, interlocking, mixed bag of topics.  Trying to oversimplify, polarize and shout louder than the other guy is what kids do.  We'd all come across better if we managed to act less like kids and more like intelligent, thoughtful, complex adults.  Might find ourselves better governed, as well, if we demanded this of our elected officials too (many of whom have been sounding remarkably childlike recently). enjoy, Mark (On the road with my--yes!--KLR....Sierra de la Ventana, Argentina, heading generally northward for home)

[Thomas Komjathy]

I want her! To bad I would have to go through Jessi to get to it. [b]From:[/b] Harry Seifert [b]To:[/b] List KLR DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tue, March 9, 2010 2:35:14 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Fwd: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Obama's healthcare...   Begin forwarded message:

[b]From: [/b]Harry Seifert [b]Date: [/b]March 9, 2010 9:21:48 AM PST [b]To: [/b]"Fred Hink" [b]Subject: [/b][b]Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Obama's healthcare.. .[/b] Right on, Fred!Say, how about Sandra Bullock's gown at the Academy Awards? Buddy On Mar 9, 2010, at 7:09 AM, Fred Hink wrote: Bob, We have to endure NKLR subjects more this time of year because of the weather and because we are all not out riding our machines.  Once spring is here, you will see more talk about KLRs and less NKLR subjects.  There are three simple rules for posting to this list and until these list rules are broken, the only thing we can do is keep that Delete key warmed up or make suggestions on this list that you have had enough NKLR subjects.  It is good that you bring up your opinions as long as you abide by our rules.  Profanity is not recommended.  Bring up a KLR subject if you want more KLR discussions. NKLR subjects have to be tolerated as it would be a pretty dry place here if all we had to talk about was strictly KLR stuff.  Some of us have been around this list and KLRs for a very long time.  There is only so much talk about what oil should I use and what is the best tire that one can stand.  [b]Politics and religion usually never have a productive place on a motorcycle forum.[/b]  If anyone needs to know how to filter your messages, please let me know. FredList Admin.  [b]From:[/b] cbrxx98@...[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:52 AM[b]To:[/b] dsn_klr650@yahoogroups.com[b]Subject:[/b] RE: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Obama's healthcare.. . Jesus! Are you trying to run people off here? Who moderates this Forum? Drop the Obama bullshit or I am leaving!   Bob 09 klr      To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com From: charlesf@... Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 00:58:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Obama's healthcare.. .   Well, I WAS going to stay out of this one.   I am on plenty of lists that get political, and I am really getting burned out on politics...  I am not an Obomination fan, nor was I a Bush The Second fan, nor was I a Klinton fan, and I didn't care much for Bush The First, either.  I did like Reagan, but Carter and Ford didn't do much for me, either.  This is not a R vs D thing.   We could use some independents. ....... And, I'll admit, I have no "facts", just my own personal observation.  But, the observation. ........ I have an autistic son.  He's almost 12 years old now.  A few years back, some of his other medical issues caused us to take a few trips to the Cleveland Clinic;  a very well respected medical institution, in Cleveland Ohio, of course. During these trips, we had stayed at the Ronald McDonald house, as they are all about helping children in these situations. My observations at the RM house and at the clinic:  There were at least as many, if not more, foreign families/patients there for medical diagnosis/treatment than there were Americans.  I met people from various countries, from South America to Saudi Arabia, etc. These people did not go to Canada for treatment; they also did not go to England, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Spain, Sweden,; or any other of the many countries with socialized (or non-socialized) medicine.  They came to the USA.  I have a hard time believing they came to the USA for WORSE medical care than they could receive elsewhere.  As Monty Python was fond of saying, "That's just silly". From what I have read/heard in recent years, the two best countries for medical research and treatment are the USA and Israel.  YMMV.  But, I haven't yet seen a "government program" that didn't waste money, and when you consider that Social Security is basically bankrupt, and the US Post Office can't turn a profit, I don't have a lot of faith that they can make the medical system work, either.  We are only so many trillion in debt that it is mathematically impossible to pay; how can we possibly trust this to work? And, finally, if you actually read the US Constitution, exactly WHERE in that document does it give the government the legal authority to force me or you to pay for anything?  Or, better yet, where does it give the government the authority take control of an entire industry?  If you can please point out the section and clause, from the actual text of the US Constitution, I'd love to read it.....  Not that that document means much to those in Washington these days.  Anyway, I'll go back to dreaming of warmer days, and my ebony 2009 KLR.Chuck F. NE PA   ----- Original Message -----[b]From:[/b] klrsisfiddy@...[b]To:[/b] marat713@... ; judjonzz@... ; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, March 09, 2010 12:18 AM[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Obama's healthcare.. . Then send us a list of these countries so we can look them up and study their system, I'm very open minded as long as I have something to consider in the debate, decision, etc. TK [b]From:[/b] Marat Valegh [b]To:[/b] Jud ; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Mon, March 8, 2010 11:02:18 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Obama's healthcare.. .   Hi there, Not the first post I thought I would write, but insults (whether intelligent or not) aside, the US health care system is by far one of the worst there is in the civilized world. Speaking from experience, it is expensive and by the time the doctors find out what is wrong with you, you will either heal on your own or die from whatever it is you have.  I have worked and lived outside the states for half my life and have seen better health care and more educated doctors in the slums of Eastern Block countries no one ever heard of. I have not been blessed with good health and have been at more hospitals then there are words in the English language. Here in the States the system needs change period. Just my two cents, is all. Sorry if this insults any hardened media brainwashed American patriot out there. Marat  [b]From:[/b] Jud [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogro ups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Mon, March 8, 2010 6:19:03 PM [b]Subject:[/b] [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR - Obama's healthcare.. .  Scott, I never said or even suggested that it was necessary for anyone to see this post, which is totally inappropriate for this forum, only that if you were going to insult me, you should have the balls to do it publicly. Thanks for sharing. --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Scott Reitor wrote: > > I originally sent this to just Jud, as I did not think it necessary for > everyone to see it. Jud has sent me a private email telling me otherwise. > That being the case, I have pasted my exact email to him on this topic > below. >  >  >  > Jud, >  > If you are going to insult someone's point of view or call bullshit, be sure > you know how to use your $10.00 words. Cognitive dissonance is the state of > a person then holding two contradictory beliefs at the same time, such as > thinking 'the sky is blue' while also thinking 'the sky is not blue.' Your > statement is therefore nonsense. >  > Your second error is to belittle an opposing point of view by citing his use > of 'spurious' anecdotes one sentence after you say "your view of the > Canadian health care system fails to comport with that of the overwhelming > majority of Canadians I have spoken to" which itself is anecdotal. That > makes you a hypocrite at best or again, merely reveals your lack of a firm > grasp on the words you use to try to sound intelligent. >  > You then conclude with criticizing the point of view of your opposition > because he made a subjective observation which you call bullshit on. The > fact is that no opinion is bullshit...only alleged facts can be bullshit and > opinions, just like yours, are nothing more than subjective beliefs. >  > In short, go ahead and speak your opinion if you want to, but don't try to > insult someone with words you cannot even use properly and an underdeveloped > grasp of how to hold an intelligent debate. >  > Scott >  > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Jud wrote: >  > > > > > > A bit of cognitive dissonance here, as your view of the Canadian health > > care system fails to comport with that of the overwhelming majority of > > Canadians I have spoken to. It's a favorite strategy to falsely malign the > > Canadian and various health care systems with spurious anecdotes. You give > > yourself away when you point to American health care as the best. In short, > > I call bullsh!t. > > > > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com , > > "fasteddiecopeman" wrote: > > > > > > Stu, > > > As a Canadian, I'd like to reply to one of your points: > > > > > > > Ask yourself this: If we had a comprehensive health care system in > > place, would emergency rooms still be used for health concerns that should > > be handled (or more likely totally avoided) at routine doctor's visits? > > > > > > > > > > The answer is: YES! > > > > > > We've had socialized health care here since the '60s. I've been in the > > emergency room with broken bones (mine or buddies) several times and had to > > wait behind kids with runny noses, and other 'maladies' that COULD HAVE (and > > SHOULD HAVE) been covered by a visit to a clinic or doctor's office! > > > > > > The wait for an MRI here is unconscionably long (can't waste money on the > > latest breakthroughs. ..); if you require, for instance, a knee replacement, > > you FIRST go on a waiting list to SEE a specialist (a months long wait!), > > then, IF it's deemed to be necessary, another up-to-several- YEARS wait for > > the operation. > > > > > > Remember Palin's "death-panels" ? We have them here in Canada - surgeons > > that COULD do surgeries are not allowed to even tho' O.R.s are available, > > due monetary concerns. People in THIS country routinely DIE waiting for > > surgeries that are required. > > > > > > The US has the BEST health care in the world. Why would you wish to let > > the government (which CAN NOT even run the Post Office, Social Security or > > Medicare) take over YOUR health? > > > > > > As a Canadian I would welcome with open arms the ability to become a US > > citizen and partake in YOUR health system! > > > > > > The Canadian system is on the verge of bankruptcy (costs me and every > > other taxpayer here between 30 and 35% of our income taxes, and going > > nowhere but UP. How's that for "FREE" health care?) > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > My 2cents (Canadian).. .. > > > > > > Ed > > > > > > >  > > > No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com  Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2729 - Release Date: 03/07/10 14:34:00

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