biker scout rip-off? nklr

[molokai1951]

My '08 will have 1500 miles when I get it here this week. When can I switch over to synthetic and can I run Mobil 1 in it? It's $30 for a case at Costco.How about 15w50 for a hot climate with very mild winters? I know there will be many opinions but I'd like to hear them all and make my decision. Thx

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Jan 27, 2008, at 7:21 PM, molokai1951 wrote:

> When can I switch over to synthetic and can I run Mobil 1 in it?

You can switch over at any time, but you'd just be wasting money. The KLR shears the viscosity of every oil very quickly, as has been shown in the numerous used oil analyses that have been posted here in the past (check the archives). Your best oil option for warm climates is a 15W-40 diesel engine oil, like Shell's Rotella T, or Castrol's Tection, or Delo 400, et al. Change it every 1,500 miles. -- Blake Sobiloff http://www.sobiloff.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

To answer your question directly, you want to make sure the motor is completely broken in before switching to synthetic. Think of it as too slick for parts like pistons and rings to wear in properly. Some numbers I have heard are around 3000-5000 miles. Yeah, I know some new cars are coming from the factory with synthetic. But those are cars, and not a clunky old KLR. And you don't know what additives they have in that synthetic break in oil, if any. Personaly, I would say don't waste your money on synthetic oil. If it makes you feel better, then that is your business. Just change whatever oil every 1500 miles or so, and you could probably omit the oil filter change every 2-3 times you change the oil. If you let the bike sit overnight, the oil filter housing drains near dry, leaving maybe 2-4 oz of oil in the filter. So I don't want to hear any crying from anyone about how much dirty oil I'm leaving in the motor by changing the filter every 2-3 changes. Draining and refilling oil should take only 5-10 minutes. Shell Rotella 15w-40 works great. By the way, 1500 miles "when it gets here"? Are you riding on freeway already? Were you doing it when brand new? Keep it under 4000 rpm for the first 500 miles? (I think that is what the manual states)? Jeff A20 In a message dated 1/27/2008 7:22:11 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bmwgs@... writes: My '08 will have 1500 miles when I get it here this week. When can I switch over to synthetic and can I run Mobil 1 in it? It's $30 for a case at Costco.How about 15w50 for a hot climate with very mild winters? I know there will be many opinions but I'd like to hear them all and make my decision. Thx **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 03:21:52 -0000 "molokai1951" writes:

> My '08 will have 1500 miles when I get it here this week. > When can I switch over to synthetic and can I run Mobil 1 in it? > It's > $30 for a case at Costco.How about 15w50 for a hot climate with very > > mild winters? > I know there will be many opinions but I'd like to hear them all and > > make my decision. > Thx

<><><><><><><> <><>><><><> molokai1951, I'm pretty much with Blake on this except for one little change. I'd say you can go at least 1,750 smiles on Rotella dino 15w/40. That's what my oil analysis shows on my 2003 KLR650. I'm guessing it will go almost 2,000 smiles before it's sheared to a 30w but don't have the data to prove that yet. I'm hoping to get to that point in the data collection process later this spring. On a similar note... I stopped at the dealer this last week to look at a 2008 KLR650 owners manual. I wanted to verify what I've been hearing about 6,000 mile oil change intervals and a first valve clearance check of 15,000 miles. One of the sales guys got me a manual and sure enough that's what's posted. He tried to tell me the 6,000 mile oil change interval was normal based on many auto manufacturers specifying similar or longer intervals for new vehicles. When I mentioned the oil compartment of the KLR650 added a transmission and a multi-disc wet clutch to the internal combustion crankcase his eyes kind of glazed over. He didn't have much to say when I told him a bit about my oil analysis results. On the valve clearances he said the service guys haven't told him anything about valves needing to be adjusted earlier than 15,000 miles on the new KLRs. For some reason that doesn't really surprise me. : ) If I had one I'd be checking the valves by 1,500 miles and then every 10,000 or so miles. If I had a 2008 KLR I would use Rotella 15w/40 dino oil with an oil change interval of no more than 2,000 miles. After the engine had more than 3,000 miles on it and the oil filter pick up screen had been cleaned I'd probably only change the oil filter every other oil change. I'd use an Emgo oil filter instead of the OEM filter saving probably $6 or more on each filter purchase. One other thing I'd do to the bike if it still uses a 12mm drain plug is replace the stock aluminum crush washer with a NAPA soft washer for about $1. It'll seal with less torque and be reuseable for many oil changes. Part number last time I bought one was 704-1371. Folks that don't replace the aluminum crush washer sometimes over torque the drain plug trying to get it to seal. That is really hard on the threads in the case. I've never heard of anyone using a soft washer have a sealing issue or overtorquing the drain plug. Good luck with your new bike. I'm looking forward to hearing what you decide to do with it. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Jake Wilson]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "molokai1951" wrote:

> > My '08 will have 1500 miles when I get it here this week. > When can I switch over to synthetic and can I run Mobil 1 in it? It's > $30 for a case at Costco.How about 15w50 for a hot climate with very > mild winters? > I know there will be many opinions but I'd like to hear them all and > make my decision. > Thx >

~~~Ain't nuthin like a good oil thread=:-) I have an 08' too. My stradegy is to use petroleum oil, SG, SJ and change every 2000 miles or so. I bought Wal-Mart brand oil (10W40, 20W50) in 5 quart jugs which is enough for two changes each (per container) First oil change waas at 30 miles. I basically did the mototune man break in procedure which is full revs with lots of engine decel braking. I was doing this between picking up the bike new at the dealer and bringing it home. I only did the motoman version of reving when I was on raods that allowed me to use 2nd and 3rd gear, but I got a good 20 miles of this type of running in before getting home that night Next oil change was at 600 miles. i'm just aboput at 1800 miles and will probably change again at 2600 miles. I replaced the oil filter each oil change and bought three filters from the dealer when I picked it up but have since ordered 5 filters from bike bandit. They were selling then for $1.87 a piece. they also had bungee cargo nets for $2 each. I bought two of those What I didn't do when I changed the oil filters, I didn't replace the o- ring on the cover and mine isn't leaking at this point Now if you want to run full syn oil, that's up to you. I've heard some say if you use full syn from day one, the rings won't seat properly. To each his own. I don't know if I buy into that argument, using full syn from day one wont let the rings seat. Back in 96' at homestead doing my first track day, the AMA circus was there and I got a chance to speak to one of the Honda wrenches and asked him about that very same point. he told me all of their motors get run in with full syn. End of story. IMO, what you need to do is make sure you seat the rings properly no matter what type of oil you are using. On a 4t, that means the high rev break in with plenty of engine decel braking. I've done different break ins with my 2t's. Last liquid-cooled 2t motor I broke in I used full syn (injected) from day one but I made sure I did 4 or 5 heat cycles, which consisted of me letting the motor get up to temp, then I ran it for no more than 20 minutes, but I ran it WOT for a mile during that time, brought the bike home and let it do a complete cool down so it was dead cold before I rode it again. 12 hours was enough to let it cool so i got this break in procedure done in a couple of days Another idea I don't agree with is the gear shearing theroy that will wear your oil out and render it useless shortly Back when I was riding ST 1100 Hondas, quite a few LD riders that chose that bike as their LD platform followed the factory suggested oil change interval of changing motor oil every 8 K miles, used Mobil One and ran those motors for over a quarter million miles w/o ever pulling a head. I'm told reading here and elsewhere that KLR's are a different animal, have roller bearing cranks and wont stand up to infrequent oil changes. Maybe they're right. More on the gear shearing effects... the ST not only used the same oil in motor and tranny, so the tranny was shearing the oil, but the ST also had four gear driven cams. There is all kinds of shearing going on in that motor, but they'll go 8 K miles anyways between oil changes and keep running a long time Jake Reddick Fla.

[Jeff Saline]

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 07:15:46 -0000 "Jake Wilson" writes:

> ~~~Ain't nuthin like a good oil thread=:-)

SNIP

> What I didn't do when I changed the oil filters, I didn't replace > the o- > ring on the cover and mine isn't leaking at this point

SNIP

> Another idea I don't agree with is the gear shearing theroy that > will > wear your oil out and render it useless shortly Back when I was > riding > ST 1100 Hondas, quite a few LD riders that chose that bike as their > LD > platform followed the factory suggested oil change interval of > changing > motor oil every 8 K miles, used Mobil One and ran those motors for > over > a quarter million miles w/o ever pulling a head. I'm told reading > here > and elsewhere that KLR's are a different animal, have roller bearing > > cranks and wont stand up to infrequent oil changes. Maybe they're > right. More on the gear shearing effects... the ST not only used > the > same oil in motor and tranny, so the tranny was shearing the oil, > but > the ST also had four gear driven cams. There is all kinds of > shearing > going on in that motor, but they'll go 8 K miles anyways between oil > > changes and keep running a long time > Jake > Reddick Fla.

<><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><> Jake, Interesting post. Thanks for sharing. I've never changed the filter cover o-ring on my KLR either and I don't have any leaks there at over 23,000 smiles. I've heard you can buy the FRAM filter and it'll come with an o-ring. I haven't ordered one to check yet. But I think that would be less expensive than just ordering the o-ring from the dealer. I'll tell you the KLR oil analysis I've done indicates the oil does get sheared rather quickly. But I don't know anyone so far that has said that will kill your engine. I also don't recall every hearing someone say running oil that has sheared down is good for an engine. I've heard of plenty of folks that said they do oil changes at 3,000 - 6,000 smile intervals and they have/had high mileage engines. But I am confident that replacing oil that has sheared from a 40 weight to a 30 or 20 weight is a good thing when it comes to engine health. When I was testing Valvoline in my KLR650 it was shearing to a 30 weight in about 1,000 miles. I could tell when I needed to change the oil as the shifting would get a bit tougher and it was hard to find neutral. I don't have that issue yet using Rotella 15w/40 with an oil change interval up to 1,750 miles. I'm thinking base on the oil analysis info I've gathered I will have an issue around the 2,000 smile mark or just before that mark. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[fasteddiecopeman]

My thoughts are DO IT. I run M1 'red cap' 15 or 20w-50 in my KLR (since around 2400 miles), 10w-30 in my Bandit 1200, and M1 of one weight or another in EVERY motor I have INCLUDING my lawn mower. And that's CAR Mobil 1 in ALL of them (that's 10). Years ago I read a bunch of test reports on synthetic vs regular oil, and a couple of things stick out - IF I remember correctly - regular oil has a film strength of about 350 psi vs 3500 psi for syn, and synthetic was the ONLY oil that could be run thru a test called the "Olds 350 test" without thickening to the point where it would NOT pour, and in fact went thru 2 successive tests and was still pourable. No other oil could do 2 tests. You pays yer money, and takes yer choice...! Cheers, Ed

[Mike Frey]

----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Saline To: sh8knj8k@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: When to switch to synthetic I'll tell you the KLR oil analysis I've done indicates the oil does get sheared rather quickly. Jeff Saline --- long winded reply ---- To Jeff: Since you are one of the few who I know of that has tested the oil from the KLR, do you have any test results from cars? If so, how does it compare? To All: Although I pay attention to all oil related threads, both here and elsewhere, I remain skeptical to this day that each oil is so different that if used in another application, disaster is imminent. But, I am open minded (I even use Amsoil in one of my cars) In all my bikes, I use Mobil 1, automotive grade, the same stuff that people have guaranteed would shorten the life of my KLR. However, I will probably switch to Rotella (equally dissed). I change oil every 2,000 miles or twice a year, whichever comes first. Never had a clutch slippage issue. The only clutches I ever wore out were in 2-stroke bikes, so that's not a good comparison. I've been a Mobil 1 user for as long as I can remember and never wore out an engine. Oops, I take that back. My Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo threw a rod bearing at 160,000 miles (everything else was original). I was not the first owner and it was obvious that whoever had it first ran it hard for the first 60,000 miles. *IF* the low friction auto grade oils are so bad for bikes, what would happen if a JASO oil was used in a car? How about Rotella T in a car? Would I just lose a couple MPG? Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

I most definitely have had clutch slippage issues with synthetic oil. First, with a 1974 Honda CB750 w/about 55k miles. Changed oil, put synthetic oil in, clutch slipped at anything over 25% power. Drained oil, problem went away in 20 miles. Rode bike until 67k miles until sold, zero clutch problems at that time. Second, on a 1984 Honda VF1000 Interceptor at 24k miles. Same thing. Clutch slipped above 75% power. Replaced oil with dino oil, problem went away. It pays to read the manufacturer recommendations, and not always the latest and greatest techno stuff. By the way, I suspect new car manufacturers are now using synthetic oil not because it makes their engines last longer or that it is so whoop-de-doo fantastic, but because they are doing everything they can to impove mileage figures. Fact is, there are a heck of a lot of engines using dino oil that have 150k-200k miles which is far longer than any manufacturer warranty. Jeff A20 In a message dated 1/28/2008 7:16:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, mike21b@... writes:

----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Saline To: _sh8knj8k@...8_ (mailto:sh8knj8k@...) Cc: _DSN_KLR650@yahoogroDSN_KLR_ (mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com) Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: When to switch to synthetic I'll tell you the KLR oil analysis I've done indicates the oil does get sheared rather quickly. Jeff Saline --- long winded reply ---- To Jeff: Since you are one of the few who I know of that has tested the oil from the KLR, do you have any test results from cars? If so, how does it compare? To All: Although I pay attention to all oil related threads, both here and elsewhere, I remain skeptical to this day that each oil is so different that if used in another application, disaster is imminent. But, I am open minded (I even use Amsoil in one of my cars) In all my bikes, I use Mobil 1, automotive grade, the same stuff that people have guaranteed would shorten the life of my KLR. However, I will probably switch to Rotella (equally dissed). I change oil every 2,000 miles or twice a year, whichever comes first. Never had a clutch slippage issue. The only clutches I ever wore out were in 2-stroke bikes, so that's not a good comparison. I've been a Mobil 1 user for as long as I can remember and never wore out an engine. Oops, I take that back. My Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo threw a rod bearing at 160,000 miles (everything else was original). I was not the first owner and it was obvious that whoever had it first ran it hard for the first 60,000 miles. *IF* the low friction auto grade oils are so bad for bikes, what would happen if a JASO oil was used in a car? How about Rotella T in a car? Would I just lose a couple MPG? Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Jud Jones" wrote:

> > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "kjbmw69" wrote: > > > > has anybody else paid for footpeg relocation brackets from BILL

DECKER-

> > BIKER SCOUT and not received them? i sent him a postal money

order on

> > 10/09/07 for payment on a pair 07 footpeg relocation brackets

that he

> > was holding for me; here it is 1/25/08 and still no brackets. to

make

> > matters worse he seldom replies to emails; although in the past 3 > > months he twice told me that he's going to pick up the brackets

from

> > powdercoating this week! wtf?? finally i asked him to refund my

money

> > if he was'nt going to deliver the brackets; again no reply. just

a word

> > of warning to potential buyers; from my experience this guy is a

waste

> > of time and money. > > > > On klr650.net he has been canceled as a vendor for failure to

deliver products or to

> communicate with his customers. He apparently has a similar history

on some other sites as

> well. >

Which is really to bad. His gizmo-footpegs for the large-footed KiLleRista looked like a well thought out device. That might be why there are inventors and marketing/manufacturing types, and rarely are they the same individual. Torsion-spring Eagle Mike is that exception. smile. and should we forget, Thermo-Bob Bill Watson. revmaaatin. who is torsion springed and thermo-bobbed